1

 

               ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICES OF THE U.S. COURTS

 

 

 

 

                 ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON APPELLATE RULES

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                        Tuesday, April 13, 2004

 

 

 

                       One Columbus Circle, N.E.

                         Washington, D.C. 20544

                                                                 2

 

      PARTICIPANTS

 

      HONORABLE SAMUEL A. ALITO, JR., Chairman

 

      PROFESSOR PATRICK J. SCHILTZ

 

      HONORABLE CARL E. STEWART

 

      MARK I. LEVY, ESQ.

 

      PROFESSOR CAROL ANN MOONEY

 

      DOUGLAS LETTER, ESQ.

      Representative of Solicitor General

 

      SANFORD SVETCOV, ESQ.

 

      MARCIA W. WALDRON

      Circuit Court

 

      MARIE LEARY

      Federal Judicial Center

 

      PROFESSOR DANIEL R. COQUILLETTE

 

      PETER G. McCABE

      Secretary, Commission on Rules of Practice and

      Procedure

 

      HONORABLE JOHN G. ROBERTS, JR.

 

      HONORABLE T.S. ELLIS, III

 

      W. THOMAS McGOUGH, JR., ESQ.

 

      JOHN K. RABIEJ

      Chief, Rules Committees Support Office

 

      HONORABLE DAVID F. LEVI

 

      HONORABLE J. GARVIN MURTHA

                                                                 3

 

                            C O N T E N T S

 

      TESTIMONY OF:                                PAGE

 

      Hon. Myron H. Bright, United States            6

      Circuit Court of Appeals for the Eighth

      Circuit, Fargo, ND

 

      Honorable Diane P. Wood, United States        24

      Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit,

      Chicago, IL

 

      Richard Frankel, Goldberg-Deitzler Fellow,    66

      Trial Lawyers for Public Justice,

      Washington, D.C.

 

      Judah Best of Debevoise & Plimpton, on        86

      behalf of the Section of Litigation,

      American Bar Association, Washington, D.C.

 

      Professor Stephen R. Barnett, Elizabeth       101

      J. Boalt Professor of Law, Emeritus,

      University of California, Berkeley

      (Boalt School of Law), Berkeley, CA

 

      Honorable Haldane Robert Mayer, Chief         126

      Judge, United States Court of Appeals

      for the Federal Circuit, Washington, D.C.

 

      Honorable John M. Walker, Jr., Chief Judge,  182

      United States Court of Appeals for the

      Second Circuit, New Haven, CT

 

      Carter G. Phillips of Sidley Austin Brown    200

      & Wood, LLP, chair of the Federal Circuit

      Advisory Committee, Washington, D.C.

 

      William T. Hangley of Hangley Aronchick      210

      Segal & Pudlin, on behalf of the

      American College of Trial Lawyers,

      Philadelphia, PA, and James Morris,

      President-Elect, American College of Trial

      Lawyers, Richmond, VA

 

      Honorable Edward R. Becker, United States    235

      Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit,

      Philadelphia, PA

                                                                 4

 

                      C O N T E N T S (Continued)

 

      TESTIMONY OF:                                PAGE

 

      Jessie Allen, Associate Counsel, Brennan     257

      Center for Justice, New York University

      School of Law, New York, NY

 

      John A. Taylor, Jr. of Horvitz & Levy LLP,    274

      chair of the California State Bar

      Association Appellate Courts Committee,

      Encino, CA

 

      Steven R. Wallach of Morrison Cohen Singer    314

      & Weinstein, LLP, New York, NY

 

      Brian Wolfman, Director, Public Citizens      325

      Litigation Group, Washington, D.C. 

 

                                                                 5

 

  1                      P R O C E E D I N G S

 

  2             JUDGE ALITO:  Can we come to order?  We're

 

  3   here this morning to hear statements concerning a

 

  4   number of rules that we have published for comment.

 

  5   We've received over 500 comments.  Most of them

 

  6   have been about a rule concerning unpublished

 

  7   opinion or our rule concerning the counting of

 

  8   votes for rehearing en banc.  We've also had

 

  9   comments on a new proposed rule regarding briefing

 

 10   in cross-appeals, not very many comments on our

 

 11   proposal to change the reference to President's Day

 

 12   to Washington's Birthday, but maybe one of the

 

 13   witnesses this morning will want to comment on

 

 14   that.

 

 15             We appreciate the tremendous line-up of

 

 16   witnesses that we have this morning representing a

 

 17   broad array of views and a great deal of

 

 18   experience.  The first witness on our list is the

 

 19   Honorable Myron H. Bright, United States Court of

 

 20   Appeals for the Eighth Circuit.  Judge Bright?

 

 21              STATEMENT OF THE HON. MYRON H. BRIGHT

 

 22             JUDGE BRIGHT:  Good morning, Mr. Chairman

 

                                                                 6

 

  1   and members of the committee, staff, and guests.  I

 

  2   am the first hitter, lead-off, so I don't expect to

 

  3   be like Casey and strike out but I'll do the best I

 

  4   can.

 

  5             I'm really very pleased to be here to

 

  6   discuss Rule 32.1, as proposed, and to tell you why

 

  7   I oppose it.  I do so on the basis of my

 

  8   experience.  I've been a federal appellate judge 35

 

  9   plus years and I've sat with many of the courts and

 

 10   I've been a senior judge now for almost 19 years.

 

 11   And I might mention that as a senior judge I've

 

 12   served frequently not only in my own circuit, which

 

 13   is the Eighth, but I've served with the Second, the

 

 14   Third, the Sixth, the Ninth, and the Eleventh

 

 15   Circuits and somewhat less consistently with the

 

 16   Fifth, the Seventh and the Tenth Circuits.  So I've

 

 17   been around a while.

 

 18             I'm at the stage of life, incidentally,

 

 19   known as the fourth stage.  The first stage is

 

 20   young.  The second stage is middle-aged, as some of

 

 21   you are.  The third stage is a little older, as

 

 22   maybe one or two may be around here.  And the

 

                                                                 7

 

  1   fourth stage is "You're looking good."  In point of

 

  2   time and seniority, I'm the ninth in point of

 

  3   service of all of the appellate judges in this

 

  4   country.

 

  5             Now I know you've had hundreds of comments

 

  6   on Rule 32.1, some for, some against, and Dean

 

  7   Schiltz--you know, I always mispronounce that,

 

  8   Dean.  I should know it because my daughter married

 

  9   a guy by the name of Schultz, which is not too far

 

 10   different.  And I know you've given the committee

 

 11   and those of us who are testifying and others

 

 12   really a very good summary and a conclusion, which

 

 13   I may not agree with in all events but you have

 

 14   your views and I certainly respect them.

 

 15             I'm speaking here for the Eighth Circuit.

 

 16   As you know, Jim Loken, our chief judge, has

 

 17   written a letter pointing out that 10 of 13 judges

 

 18   on our court who responded opposed the rule and

 

 19   three approved the proposed rule.  I also speak on

 

 20   my own behalf and most of the remarks are really my

 

 21   own views.

 

 22             While I'm going to speak on my experience,

 

                                                                 8

 

  1   I want to mention four letters, three of which you

 

  2   have and the fourth one you'll have because it was

 

  3   written to me.  Those letters are really quite

 

  4   significant to me because they represent a spectrum

 

  5   of people that I know and respect and their views

 

  6   are pretty important.

 

  7             On one side of the coin is Ken Starr.

 

  8   Now, as you know, he was an appellate judge.  He's

 

  9   now an appellate attorney and soon, Patrick, he's

 

 10   going to be a dean.  On the other side of the coin

 

 11   is a person who's been an appellate practitioner

 

 12   and I've done programs with him and is now an

 

 13   appellate judge, and that's Tim Dyk of the Federal

 

 14   Circuit.  I also have a great deal of regard for a

 

 15   letter which I have from Gerald Tjoflat of the

 

 16   Eleventh Circuit.  He and I go back a long time.

 

 17   We've served on committees together.  We've been

 

 18   great friends.  And I have a copy of that letter,

 

 19   which I'll see that you get.  And the fourth is

 

 20   from the Attorney General when I became a judge,

 

 21   and that's Ramsey Clark.

 

 22             Let me go back a little bit in appellate

 

                                                                 9

 

  1   history.  If there were a perfect appellate world,

 

  2   when I became a member of the court it was almost

 

  3   perfect.  We heard arguments in every case unless

 

  4   it was a pro se appeal, no lawyer, or unless it was

 

  5   just frivolous and dismissed.  We gave each case

 

  6   full treatment, published an opinion unless it had

 

  7   been dismissed earlier.

 

  8             Well, we soon had to change.  The Eighth

 

  9   Circuit adopted the nonpublication rule in 1973 and

 

 10   we followed the leading circuit, and that was a big

 

 11   Fifth Circuit which just had so many cases that

 

 12   they had to do something, so they developed a

 

 13   program of screening the cases, putting them on a

 

 14   fast track with no argument if they didn't seem to

 

 15   justify full treatment and writing a very short

 

 16   opinion, really for the parties and giving their

 

 17   reasons therefore.

 

 18             In the '70s and '80s, with the litigation

 

 19   explosion and, of course, the increase in appeals

 

 20   in the federal courts, that nonpublication rule

 

 21   really became a judicial necessity.  The language

 

 22   "unpublished" simply means, to me, that we judges

 

                                                                10

 

  1   have not had the time to carefully write an opinion

 

  2   to worry about precedent and we really concentrate

 

  3   only on is the result right?  And lots of times the

 

  4   work on opinions, maybe most of the time, is not

 

  5   our own.

 

  6             Let's turn for a moment though to compare

 

  7   how I as an appellate judge and I think many of the

 

  8   appellate judges look at a case as compared to the

 

  9   lawyers, and there are a number of lawyers who are

 

 10   here and are in favor of the proposed rule and part

 

 11   of it, I think, is because the perspective on which

 

 12   we're on.

 

 13             Now with the appellate lawyer, and many of

 

 14   you have or are appellate lawyers, the appellate

 

 15   lawyer really puts the sources together, puts the

 

 16   cases together and serves it out to us on a plate.

 

 17   Not too much of it is original except how it's

 

 18   arranged.  On the other hand, when we have to write

 

 19   an opinion for precedent, we are really an author.

 

 20   We're a creative writer.  When I was first a judge

 

 21   and it just scared the living you-know-what out of

 

 22   me and I'd done a lot of appellate work but it was

 

                                                                11

 

  1   different.  And, as you know, writing an opinion is

 

  2   different.               So there's a difference of

 

  3   perspective there, members of the committee.

 

  4             Listen, I've written on cases, and many of

 

  5   you have, and I've worked weeks, sometimes months

 

  6   on a case and it takes very thoughtful, careful

 

  7   writing and editing to write an opinion which you

 

  8   know is going to be precedent.  It requires

 

  9   extensive work and very careful writing.  I try to

 

 10   make every phrase, every sentence, even every

 

 11   paragraph really meaningful and right to the point.

 

 12             Now I want to remind you that to change

 

 13   the no-citation rule to allow all opinions to be

 

 14   cited puts into the inventory of cases each year

 

 15   about 20,000 of the 27,000 cases decided by the

 

 16   appellate courts.  About 80 percent of the cases,

 

 17   as you know, are nonpublished opinions.

 

 18             Sometimes I think there's too much law out

 

 19   there, you know?  The Federal Reporter Second was

 

 20   391 when my name appeared as a judge and now it's

 

 21   at 370 Federal Third, 969 volumes later, and the

 

 22   volumes are thicker now, you know?  Estimating at

 

                                                                12

 

  1   1,500 pages per volume and that's not a bad

 

  2   estimate, I don't think, we have between 1.3 and

 

  3   1.4 million pages of legal writing.

 

  4             I make two other comments.  I know you've

 

  5   been exposed to the argument that if unpublished

 

  6   opinions are citable, judges will take time away

 

  7   from the important cases that they want to write a

 

  8   publication opinion on and will not be able to

 

  9   spend that much time.  I think that argument is

 

 10   well taken.  Adding so much law in over 20,000

 

 11   opinions published each year will really mean from

 

 12   a research standpoint the cup runneth over.

 

 13             I'm a firm believer, having sat with many

 

 14   circuits, that while the way we sit and the way we

 

 15   decide cases is pretty much the same, the

 

 16   procedures vary and I believe that the circuits

 

 17   should have the right and prerogative to handle

 

 18   their own caseload in the best way possible.  As

 

 19   you know, some courts don't allow any citation of

 

 20   unpublished opinion except in narrow areas, like

 

 21   res judicata, law of the case, and so forth, and

 

 22   others allow it in limited circumstances.

 

                                                                13

 

  1             Now I want to mention a couple of circuits

 

  2   and I know that Judge Walker's going to be here

 

  3   from the Second Circuit but I've sat there many

 

  4   times and I love that court because they hear

 

  5   arguments on almost everything and I love to hear

 

  6   oral argument.  But in those cases we hear the oral

 

  7   argument, we've done our preparation, we really on

 

  8   the bench ordinarily say, "Is there anything to

 

  9   write?"  "Well, we're going to affirm."  The judge

 

 10   writes a short opinion, usually the presiding

 

 11   judge.  The other two judges take a quick look and

 

 12   concur and the next day there's an order going out,

 

 13   which usually affirms.  Very few unpublished

 

 14   opinions reverse that I've seen and they shouldn't.

 

 15             Now I see no reason in the Second Circuit,

 

 16   for example, to make those opinions published and

 

 17   citable without a lot more work on the part of the

 

 18   judges.

 

 19             Now the Ninth Circuit has its own special

 

 20   problems.  They hear about 5,300 cases a year.

 

 21   They've got 28 active judges and--I don't know--I

 

 22   think about 17 senior judges and a lot of the

 

                                                                14

 

  1   publication of those opinions really would create a

 

  2   problem and I think most of the judges have written

 

  3   to you about them.  And I'm not going to mention

 

  4   anything special except that I think the criticism

 

  5   of its nonpublication rule is really not well

 

  6   taken.

 

  7             I'm going to put the Third, the Sixth, and

 

  8   the Eight Circuits together because all three of

 

  9   those circuits allow publication under certain

 

 10   circumstances.  As a matter of fact, I think in the

 

 11   Third Circuit there really are no bars to it but to

 

 12   tell you the truth, I have rarely if ever--well, I

 

 13   have but I've rarely seen an unpublished opinion

 

 14   brought to the attention of the court.  The one

 

 15   case that I do recall once in a while, and we do

 

 16   get them once in a while, would be sentencing

 

 17   guideline cases because many of those are

 

 18   unpublished and probably should not be published,

 

 19   except in the few instances where there's a new

 

 20   twist to some of the guidelines.

 

 21             In our circuit we had an absolute

 

 22   no-publication rule except for limited exceptions,

 

                                                                15

 

  1   like res judicata, and so forth, until 1994 and

 

  2   then we put in this so-called persuasive rule.  If

 

  3   there's no case otherwise citable, you can cite an

 

  4   unpublished opinion.  Well, it hasn't caused any

 

  5   problems and I haven't seen really, as I've told

 

  6   you, much in the way of unpublished opinions.  I

 

  7   know there was one mentioned in the famous or

 

  8   infamous Anatasoff case, and I won't go into that.

 

  9             Well, I suppose you could say what's the

 

 10   beef?  What's the big deal?  It's not causing any

 

 11   problems.  Well, let me tell you:  Rule 32.1 trumps

 

 12   the advice that we give not to cite unpublished

 

 13   opinions.  It really puts on the same level to the

 

 14   appellate lawyer that he or she can cite an

 

 15   unpublished opinion and it makes a difference to

 

 16   us.  Really while the argument made in an

 

 17   unpublished opinion may always be repeated in a

 

 18   brief, what the lawyers want is the imprint of

 

 19   three judges on that opinion.  And let's face it.

 

 20   If we know that our so-called unpublished

 

 21   nonprecedential opinion can come back, we've got to

 

 22   take more care in writing.  We've got to look over

 

                                                                16

 

  1   it a lot more carefully.  And I think the rule of

 

  2   unintended circumstances may well apply, with the

 

  3   result being that unpublished opinions will be

 

  4   treated by lawyers, publishers and the academia as

 

  5   part of the necessary research for making an

 

  6   appellate argument and writing a brief, and I think

 

  7   that's going to be more work for everybody.

 

  8             Moreover, it forces the courts to change

 

  9   their operations without their consent.  And you

 

 10   can bet the lawyers will seek out the unpublished

 

 11   opinion that may contain language supporting their

 

 12   views affecting briefing in appeals courts, as well

 

 13   as trial courts.

 

 14             Now listen.  If all of the lawyers who are

 

 15   going to appear in this committee were the quality

 

 16   of the lawyers that appear before us, I wouldn't

 

 17   worry about it because there wouldn't be an

 

 18   unpublished opinion that would be cited unless it

 

 19   was the rare case, but that's not true.  The

 

 20   quality of lawyers who appear in appeals varies in

 

 21   sections, in circuits, and otherwise.

 

 22             Now I really think that the adoption of

 

                                                                17

 

  1   this Rule 32 and the opening up of four to five

 

  2   times more cases possibly being cited than now is a

 

  3   mistake and it's going to probably mean an

 

  4   unintended circumstance, at least for me and I

 

  5   don't want to do it because I like to say something

 

  6   in my unpublished opinions.  You know, we can say

 

  7   just affirmed or enforced under our rule, I never

 

  8   do that except in an unusual case.  I try to give

 

  9   the parties some reason and I think it could go the

 

 10   other way.  I would hope not but unless you're

 

 11   going to increase judge power, law clerk power to

 

 12   take care of the new problems that may well surface

 

 13   under 32.1, I think we've got something that should

 

 14   not be enacted.

 

 15             I've served on this committee for a time

 

 16   and I know that it's the tradition not to press for

 

 17   a rule unless it has near unanimity for its

 

 18   adoption.  That's not so here.  Almost all the

 

 19   federal judges oppose the rule. In addition to the

 

 20   judges, I know you have a lot of letters from

 

 21   lawyers and I've sort of surveyed the appellate

 

 22   lawyers in my circuit.  Many of them would like to

 

                                                                18

 

  1   have the rule or at least say well, I'd like a

 

  2   national rule, just like we have it in the Eighth

 

  3   Circuit, but recognizing the problems that it may

 

  4   make for judges and for lawyers, there are many who

 

  5   have said we don't think you need a national rule.

 

  6   And let's face it.  Most lawyers don't practice in

 

  7   more than one circuit and there's no problem in

 

  8   learning the rules of the circuit.

 

  9             Well, what do I think?  Let me give you my

 

 10   views from a practical standpoint.  Number one, if

 

 11   it ain't broke, don't fix it.  Number two, don't

 

 12   open the door to a new rule unless you can clearly

 

 13   see what's on the other side.  And number three, I

 

 14   echo Dean Patrick because soon and even now under

 

 15   the E-Government Act of 2002, all written opinions

 

 16   of the court will be on line.

 

 17             Therefore, I think the proposed Rule 32.1

 

 18   should be dropped and let each circuit deal with

 

 19   this new E-Government Act and decide whether

 

 20   changes in procedure are to be made in light of the

 

 21   computer age and the E-Government Act.  Anyway,

 

 22   speaking of the computer age, I just came back from

 

                                                                19

 

  1   computer school at age 85 and I wasn't the only

 

  2   older judge there.

 

  3             So anyway, Mr. Chairman and members of the

 

  4   committee, thanks for your time and it's been a

 

  5   pleasure.  If there are any questions I'd be glad

 

  6   to answer them and I'm going to give John a copy of

 

  7   my extended remarks that yo can have in case you

 

  8   want to refer to them.  Thanks, John.

 

  9             JUDGE ALITO:  Thank you very much, Judge

 

 10   Bright. Let me ask you a question to start out that

 

 11   draws on your unique experience of having sat with

 

 12   so many different circuits.  I don't think any of

 

 13   our other witnesses has had that experience.

 

 14   You've sat with circuits that prohibit the citation

 

 15   of unpublished opinions, circuits that have no

 

 16   prohibition, circuits that limit the citation to

 

 17   certain circumstances, I guess including your own

 

 18   circuit.

 

 19             I wondered if you have noticed any effect

 

 20   that these local rules have had on either the work

 

 21   of the lawyers or the work of the judges.  We've

 

 22   had conflicting comments from a variety of

 

                                                                20

 

  1   commenters.  We've had those who've predicted that

 

  2   if Rule 32.1 is adopted many very serious adverse

 

  3   consequences will occur.  We've had others who've

 

  4   said that if you look to the experiences of the

 

  5   circuits that do not prohibit the citation of

 

  6   unpublished opinions, there's really very little

 

  7   evidence, if any, that this has had any major

 

  8   effect either on the work of the lawyers or on the

 

  9   work of the courts.

 

 10             And I wondered whether you have noticed

 

 11   that in the circuits where the citation of

 

 12   unpublished opinions is allowed that when you are

 

 13   preparing for an argument you have been burdened

 

 14   with a great many citations to unpublished opinions

 

 15   that don't seem to be well written or well reasoned

 

 16   and whether this has materially, the knowledge that

 

 17   the opinion will be citable when you're writing an

 

 18   unpublished opinion, has made the process of

 

 19   producing the opinion much more burdensome than it

 

 20   is in the circuits that prohibit their citation.

 

 21             JUDGE BRIGHT:  I'm glad to answer that

 

 22   question.  I'm going to focus it right on your

 

                                                                21

 

  1   circuit because I've been sitting there for a long

 

  2   time, even before Judge Becker was chief, and he

 

  3   and I have been close friends.

 

  4             I have to say in all honesty there really

 

  5   doesn't seem to be any difference.  I've sat on the

 

  6   Third Circuit.  There may have been some

 

  7   unpublished opinions that have been cited.  I can't

 

  8   remember them and I didn't pay any attention to

 

  9   them if I could.  And the same goes in every one of

 

 10   the circuits--even the Eighth Circuit, the same.

 

 11             But there's a difference and the big

 

 12   difference is this.  Right now every one of the

 

 13   circuits has a warning--we don't want to hear

 

 14   unpublished opinions but you can cite it if really

 

 15   it's persuasive, something like the Eighth Circuit.

 

 16   That's true, I think, in almost all the circuits.

 

 17   It's certainly true in the circuits where I've sat

 

 18   and they allow publication.

 

 19             But if you're going to make it a level

 

 20   playing field with this new rule, there's no longer

 

 21   to be the deterrence.  Sure, the court can say we

 

 22   don't like you to cite them but the rule says you

 

                                                                22

 

  1   can, but the main rule is going to put nonpublished

 

  2   and published opinions as far as being in the

 

  3   briefs on the same level.  And if I were sure that

 

  4   it wouldn't make any difference I'd say go ahead,

 

  5   but I am not sure.  I really think if you open the

 

  6   doors, you're going to cause a problem.  And if it

 

  7   isn't a problem today, let's not change it.

 

  8             Anything else?

 

  9             MR. SVETCOV:  Can I say you look terrific,

 

 10   Judge?

 

 11             JUDGE BRIGHT:  Thank you.  I tell you, I

 

 12   stopped in to see the chief.  We've been friends

 

 13   for a long time.  As a matter of fact, I always say

 

 14   I was his token Democrat who went to his swearing

 

 15   in as chief and also went to his party that evening

 

 16   and I said to him, "You're looking good" and he

 

 17   said to me, "You're looking good."  Thank you.

 

 18   Thank you very much.  It's been a real pleasure.

 

 19             JUDGE ALITO:  Thank you very much.

 

 20             JUDGE BRIGHT:  By the way, John has a copy

 

 21   of my extended remarks.  Thank you.

 

 22             JUDGE ALITO:  Thank you.  The Honorable

 

                                                                23

 

  1   Diane P. Wood, United States Court of Appeals for

 

  2   the Seventh Circuit.

 

  3               STATEMENT OF THE HON. DIANE P. WOOD

 

  4             JUDGE WOOD:  Well, good morning to

 

  5   everyone.  I really do appreciate the opportunity

 

  6   to be here to offer my thoughts on proposed Rule

 

  7   32.1.  The Seventh Circuit, as you know, is one of

 

  8   the stricter circuits.

 

  9             Both for the reasons explained in the

 

 10   letter that a majority of judges of our court

 

 11   submitted and for some additional reasons I'd like

 

 12   to highlight this morning, I and most of my

 

 13   colleagues oppose this proposed rule.  On top of

 

 14   that, I think the flaws are deep enough that I

 

 15   don't think they would be cured by a further study

 

 16   of this particular solution to the set of problems

 

 17   the committee has been thinking about.  So I urge

 

 18   the committee to table this proposal indefinitely

 

 19   and to continue to entrust the manner in which

 

 20   legally binding precedent is developed to the

 

 21   discretion of each circuit.

 

 22             Now while it is an undeniable fact that

 

                                                                24

 

  1   thousands of dispositions in the Federal Courts of

 

  2   Appeals fall under the noncitation rules and I'm

 

  3   going to try to call this a noncitation rule, some

 

  4   80 percent of the matters terminated most recently,

 

  5   the year ending 2003, it's far less clear that this

 

  6   constitutes a serious problem.  The committee note,

 

  7   as I observed, and I looked at most of the comments

 

  8   that had been filed, offers several reasons for

 

  9   taking this action but I think each one can be

 

 10   challenged.

 

 11             One reason is that there's a need for

 

 12   national uniformity with respect to citation

 

 13   practices and that uniformity should be achieved in

 

 14   the direction of liberalizing citation practices

 

 15   instead of the opposite direction.

 

 16             Second is a reason that I'm thinking of as

 

 17   something like a truth in labeling requirement.

 

 18   The present orders, memoranda, and so forth are out

 

 19   there.  They're produced by the circuits.  Why

 

 20   pretend they aren't out there?  You know, it seems

 

 21   that if they are out there and they're real

 

 22   decisions of real courts, we ought to treat them

 

                                                                25

 

  1   that way.

 

  2             A third reason is that we ought to prefer

 

  3   a more open system in which there are no limits on

 

  4   materials that counsel or the parties can call to

 

  5   the court's attention--I suppose if it were a pro

 

  6   se case--at least when, as is asserted to be the

 

  7   case, there's very little cost to doing so.

 

  8             And the fourth was a comment that this

 

  9   rule change would lighten the burden on attorneys,

 

 10   who have to decipher every circuit's citation

 

 11   rules.

 

 12             Let me address these points one at a time

 

 13   but I want to begin with something that seems to me

 

 14   like a dog that's not barking.  No one I think

 

 15   anymore is seriously arguing that proposed Rule

 

 16   32.1 is necessary to counter an impression that

 

 17   there's some secret law of the circuit hidden away

 

 18   in so-called unpublished orders.  That story simply

 

 19   cannot hold water in the 21st Century court system.

 

 20             As Judge Bright just commented, as you

 

 21   certainly are well aware, whatever discrepancies

 

 22   there may have been in that regard are soon to be

 

                                                                26

 

  1   cured by the E-Government Act, which assures that

 

  2   every court of appeals will put everything on its

 

  3   website.  In fact, in the Seventh Circuit we've

 

  4   been doing that for years.  That means that with

 

  5   free Internet access--maybe you'll go to the public

 

  6   library or whatever--every last word coming out of

 

  7   the Courts of Appeals is available to anyone with

 

  8   the skill and the access to navigate these free

 

  9   websites, both inside and outside the judiciary.

 

 10   For those with the resources to use Westlaw or

 

 11   Lexis, access is even easier.  So we're not talking

 

 12   about a secret law problem.

 

 13             The discussion we're having today deals

 

 14   solely with the question whether each and every

 

 15   publicly available decision of the courts may be

 

 16   raised in submissions to those courts in support of

 

 17   the litigant's position.  So let me turn to these

 

 18   arguments and just run through them briefly.

 

 19             What about the hardship point?  Well, it

 

 20   was first quote notable to me that quite a few

 

 21   distinguished members of the bar who submitted

 

 22   comments to this committee flatly disagreed with

 

                                                                27

 

  1   that prediction.  They pointed out the circuit

 

  2   rules aren't really that hard to find.  They're on

 

  3   the websites, too.  All you have to do is click

 

  4   over to the website and you can see everybody's

 

  5   local rules.  And no responsible appellate lawyer

 

  6   is going to omit checking out the local rules just

 

  7   because of publication versus nonpublication.

 

  8   There are too many others rules you have to look

 

  9   at.

 

 10             Most importantly, I think, just as we

 

 11   suggested in our comments from the Seventh Circuit

 

 12   judges, attorneys from private firms, from public

 

 13   interest groups, and others think that the true

 

 14   hardship is going to come from the need to deal

 

 15   with this enormous body of decisions that are

 

 16   presently designated for nonpublication.

 

 17             It reminds me a little bit of one of my

 

 18   favorite scenes from a movie.  I'm a big Indiana

 

 19   Jones fan and as you may remember, the very last

 

 20   scene of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" deals with the

 

 21   question where are they going to hide the ark?

 

 22   Where are they going to keep it where it's

 

                                                                28

 

  1   absolutely safe?  And you see some men trundling it

 

  2   down on a hand cart in an enormous warehouse in

 

  3   some--I always think of Suitland out here in

 

  4   Maryland, but they're hiding it in the midst of

 

  5   this giant mass of boxes and I have a feeling that

 

  6   the worthwhile things are going to be hidden in a

 

  7   similarly huge mass of cases.

 

  8             This 80 percent number is a worthwhile

 

  9   number to think about.  By adding these noncitable

 

 10   dispositions to the body of law a competent lawyer

 

 11   will want to look at, the research load for the

 

 12   lawyer will increase some fourfold.  If clients are

 

 13   paying for the hour their bills will go up.  It

 

 14   will hit the poor and the middle class and I think

 

 15   it's hardly the direction we want to take when

 

 16   we're really worried about the spiraling cost of

 

 17   litigation.              So it would be worth it if

 

 18   there were some marginal benefit but I suggest

 

 19   there is very little marginal benefit.

 

 20             If you're having trouble sleeping some

 

 21   night let me recommend that you sit down and read

 

 22   two or three weeks worth of the Seventh Circuit's

 

                                                                29

 

  1   unpublished and noncitable orders, the orders that

 

  2   say "Do not cite; see Circuit Rule 53," every one

 

  3   of which I assure you I read.  You will find

 

  4   prisoner cases where the prisoner failed to allege

 

  5   that a prison official acted with the necessary

 

  6   malice to make out an Eighth Amendment violation.

 

  7   You'll find Social Security cases where we say,

 

  8   "Yeah, the administrative law judge had substantial

 

  9   evidence to rely on, so we're affirming the

 

 10   disposition."  You'll find immigration cases where

 

 11   we say the same thing.

 

 12             You'll find employment cases where the

 

 13   plaintiff failed to make out one element of the

 

 14   McDonnell-Douglas prima facie case, adding to the

 

 15   mountain of McDonnell-Douglas cases that are out

 

 16   there.  And you'll find Anders brief after Anders

 

 17   brief after Anders brief where the order rehearses

 

 18   why counsel has correctly concluded that this

 

 19   appeal is absolutely without merit and so we grant

 

 20   the motion to dismiss the appeal.

 

 21             Each of these orders typically includes a

 

 22   discussion of some basic standards of law.  It

 

                                                                30

 

  1   might be the standard of review.  It might be basic

 

  2   principles of administrative law if it's a Social

 

  3   Security case or an immigration case.  It might be

 

  4   basic principles about employment discrimination

 

  5   cases, whatever it may be.  In the Anders briefs we

 

  6   might have a little section explaining why a Fourth

 

  7   Amendment challenge would be an utter frivolity, so

 

  8   you talk about that.

 

  9             These are principles of law that would

 

 10   apply in a meritorious case but they're just

 

 11   rehearsed for the benefit of the parties in these

 

 12   orders, as we call them.  So I think they would do

 

 13   nothing but clutter up the research of someone

 

 14   faced with a genuine issue in one of these areas.

 

 15             All right, so that gets me to the point

 

 16   that I think it would be a fallacy to think that

 

 17   this rule would be cost-free from the standpoint of

 

 18   courts.  I know a lot of commentators have pointed

 

 19   out to you that the effort in the rule to draw a

 

 20   distinction between something that's citable and

 

 21   something that's precedential is perhaps based on

 

 22   unrealistic hopes and I think that that's quite

 

                                                                31

 

  1   right.

 

  2             If the cited order is the work product of

 

  3   our court, if we have to study the facts to see if

 

  4   they're distinguishable from the case presently

 

  5   before us, if we should either follow the precise

 

  6   formulation of the rule of law or explain why we're

 

  7   not doing so, in sort, if we really have to treat

 

  8   this thing as a full-fledged precedential opinion

 

  9   of the court, then it is a full-fledged

 

 10   precedential opinion of the court.  You know the

 

 11   old saying--if it walks like a duck and quacks like

 

 12   a duck, and so forth.

 

 13             It is and it's hard for me to see how if I

 

 14   was looking at one of these endless

 

 15   McDonnell-Douglas unpublished orders, which by the

 

 16   way in our court come when it's a pro se appellant

 

 17   because we give oral argument and publish in every

 

 18   single case where there's a lawyer on both sides,

 

 19   then  it's just not something that's going to be a

 

 20   very fruitful process for us.

 

 21             So I also would point out with this vastly

 

 22   increased pool of cases, the chances of both

 

                                                                32

 

  1   intracircuit conflicts are magnified and

 

  2   intercircuit conflicts.  Intracircuit conflicts

 

  3   will place an extra burden on the en banc courts.

 

  4   Intercircuit conflicts may have the undesirable

 

  5   effect of bloating the Supreme Court's certiorari

 

  6   docket.

 

  7             Now as Judge Bright certainly pointed out,

 

  8   I think there can be no denying the fact that the

 

  9   workload on judges will increase.  I don't think

 

 10   any of us around this table thinks judges are being

 

 11   lazy right now or underworked, so that's something

 

 12   to be concerned about, as well.  Resources are

 

 13   shrinking for the judiciary, not expanding, and I

 

 14   think that's a point to remember.

 

 15             Recall--actually, this is way back in the

 

 16   day when I was a law clerk in the Fifth Circuit.

 

 17   Judge Griffin Bell at that time was taking the lead

 

 18   on the Fifth Circuit, which in those days was the

 

 19   old Fifth Circuit, all the way over to Florida, in

 

 20   creating the innovations, then innovation in the

 

 21   mid-'70s to which Judge Bright referred--case

 

 22   screening, decisions whether oral argument should

 

                                                                33

 

  1   be given in various cases or not, and this was

 

  2   because the caseloads were really starting to

 

  3   explode around the country.

 

  4             We thought it was bad then.  I compared

 

  5   the number of cases my judge, Irving Goldberg of

 

  6   the Fifth Circuit had decided the year I clerked

 

  7   for him with the cases I had the first year I was

 

  8   an appellate judge on the Seventh Circuit and it

 

  9   was more than doubled.  I thought, "Boy, I thought

 

 10   I was working hard."  That would be the reason.

 

 11   There's just more out there.

 

 12             So I don't think the need for effective

 

 13   docket management has decreased since Judge Bell's

 

 14   day; it has only become more severe.

 

 15             Now let me quickly move--I know the

 

 16   committee has lots of people to hear.  I think

 

 17   truth in labeling sounds like a good idea but in

 

 18   some sense no one is pretending that those opinions

 

 19   aren't out there.  What we're saying instead is

 

 20   these opinions, these orders, unpublished,

 

 21   uncitable documents, are routine applications of

 

 22   routine principles of law with explanation for the

 

                                                                34

 

  1   benefit of the parties.  That's a good thing to do.

 

  2   The parties deserve to hear from us, the judges,

 

  3   why they win or why they lose.  We are not arbitral

 

  4   tribunals and indeed arbitral tribunals sometimes

 

  5   explain, as well.  We're public courts and we

 

  6   should tell the parties why they win or lose.

 

  7   Otherwise, as my Chief Judge Joel Flaum likes to

 

  8   say, we're going to look like the Emperor Nero

 

  9   going out with a thumb's up or a thumb's down and

 

 10   seeming just as arbitrary as I guess we all assume

 

 11   that particular emperor was.  So I'm going to come

 

 12   back to another point in a minute.

 

 13             Let me spend just an extra minute on the

 

 14   uniformity point.  This is a very serious issue.

 

 15   Sometimes uniformity is a good thing but sometimes

 

 16   it can be used to stifle local experimentation.  I

 

 17   think of the Supreme Court's constant praise for

 

 18   using the states as laboratories for innovation.

 

 19   The same thing is true of the circuits in many

 

 20   ways.  Note it was a circuit--it was the Fifth

 

 21   Circuit that began to develop the tools on which we

 

 22   all rely today.

 

                                                                35

 

  1             On top of that, a superficial uniform rule

 

  2   superimposed on extremely different circumstances

 

  3   is not going to produce uniform results.  It's

 

  4   going to produce dissimilar results because, as it

 

  5   were, the data that feeds into it is going to be so

 

  6   different.

 

  7             Now a lot of people have already commented

 

  8   and everybody here knows that the 13 circuits vary

 

  9   tremendously.  They vary in geography, caseload.

 

 10   We have one specialized circuit, the Federal

 

 11   Circuit.  The D.C. Circuit has its own unique

 

 12   aspects.  And they differ in myriad other ways.

 

 13   That's obviously true.  That alone is enough to

 

 14   counsel caution, I think, in assuming that we have

 

 15   a one-size-fits-all situation.

 

 16             But there are some other ways that I think

 

 17   we also want to pay attention to variations in the

 

 18   circuits.  These include allocation of cases to the

 

 19   oral argument docket versus the nonargued docket,

 

 20   the percentage of cases that are resolved by a

 

 21   published, fully precedential opinion, and the use

 

 22   of various summary disposition techniques.  These

 

                                                                36

 

  1   are incredibly different among the circuits.

 

  2             Let's deconstruct this 80 percent number I

 

  3   referred to a minute ago.  The AO says that out of

 

  4   some 27,000 opinions or orders filed in cases

 

  5   terminated on the merits, and these statistics weed

 

  6   out very routine jurisdictional dismissals for the

 

  7   people who waited 120 days to file their notice of

 

  8   appeal or something like that, it's about 80

 

  9   percent unpublished.  Then they divide it up into

 

 10   other categories--written signed dispositions,

 

 11   written reasoned and unsigned, and written reasoned

 

 12   and no comment.  Then within each of those

 

 13   categories they say, "How many are published?  How

 

 14   many are unpublished?"

 

 15             The variations among the circuits are

 

 16   enormous.  The Second Circuit, for example, had a

 

 17   total of almost 2,000 opinions or orders of all

 

 18   kinds.  The published 438 written signed opinions.

 

 19   1,451 were unpublished, written and signed opinions

 

 20   and 45 were published, written and unsigned.  Now

 

 21   they don't use written and unsigned without comment

 

 22   at all.

 

                                                                37

 

  1             In the Seventh Circuit, as I mentioned a

 

  2   minute ago, our practice is completely different.

 

  3   In our case a written, signed opinion is a synonym

 

  4   for a published opinion.  We don't do it the other

 

  5   way.  Zero of our written and signed opinions were

 

  6   unpublished.  And out of our total of 1,404 cases,

 

  7   581 were published, written and signed, zero

 

  8   unpublished, written and signed.  And in the

 

  9   unsigned opinion group, which is our orders, 22

 

 10   were published written explanations and 765 were

 

 11   unpublished.

 

 12             You could go through--you'll have the

 

 13   statistics available to you with the charts and

 

 14   there are enormous differences among the circuits.

 

 15   The same differences show up when you look at the

 

 16   total percentage of unpublished opinions by a

 

 17   circuit.  And here, of course, we're using

 

 18   unpublished in the specialized way we're talking

 

 19   about it.

 

 20             In 2003 the Fourth Circuit had the highest

 

 21   percentage at 91 percent.  The lowest percentage

 

 22   was the First Circuit at 39 percent, a difference

 

                                                                38

 

  1   exceeding 100 percent.  So the instinctive reaction

 

  2   of somebody who practices in the First Circuit

 

  3   might be, "What's the big deal?"  The pool of

 

  4   precedential published opinions in that circuit is

 

  5   vastly larger than the pool.

 

  6             So I think in answer to the question that

 

  7   Judge Alito posed to Judge Bright, what's the

 

  8   difference among the circuits, I think part of it

 

  9   is that underlying practice of how much is out

 

 10   there to be looked at may be linked--in fact, I'm

 

 11   certain it is linked in some ways to that circuit's

 

 12   rule about the use of noncitable dispositions.

 

 13             The Seventh and the D.C. Circuit, as it

 

 14   happens, were the same on this.  We each had 57

 

 15   percent of our opinions unpublished--quote-unquote.

 

 16   The Eleventh and the Fifth Circuits were up at the

 

 17   87 percent level.  These are big differences.

 

 18             So while on the one hand the Seventh

 

 19   Circuit has one of the more restrictive rules

 

 20   regarding citation, on the other hand, a far

 

 21   smaller percentage of our docket is being put in

 

 22   the order category and thus noncitable.  Even

 

                                                                39

 

  1   though we're a small circuit and I'm sure one can

 

  2   speculate about why this is true, in absolute

 

  3   numbers we had the third largest number of written,

 

  4   signed and published opinions int  country.  The

 

  5   Ninth Circuit had 777.  Not surprising that they

 

  6   would have the most.  The Eighth Circuit had 648

 

  7   and we had 581.  No one else exceeded 500 in the

 

  8   statistical year ending September 30, 2003.

 

  9             So I think you need to look at the full

 

 10   picture in each circuit.  In other words, you can't

 

 11   just sort of pluck out the published opinion rule

 

 12   and say let's do something with that without

 

 13   realizing that it's a function itself of the

 

 14   circuit's practices and cultures on oral argument,

 

 15   on publication, on other matters that lead into

 

 16   this.

 

 17             My point, I stress, is not that I think

 

 18   there's any magic percentage of publication for any

 

 19   circuit.  I think it's up to each circuit to decide

 

 20   what it wants to do. I'm very happy in our circuit

 

 21   that we do give oral argument in every case where

 

 22   there's a lawyer on both sides.  I think that's a

 

                                                                40

 

  1   useful practice.  And in cases where there is no

 

  2   lawyer if one judge thinks that the case deserves

 

  3   fuller treatment, we importune or appoint or in any

 

  4   other way, hijack a lawyer into representing the

 

  5   party.  Sometimes it hash to be an amicus.

 

  6             So let me suggest a different strategy

 

  7   that might address the rare situation where a panel

 

  8   has erred in designating something for

 

  9   noncitability.  Most circuits--maybe not every

 

 10   circuit, but I found similar rules in most

 

 11   circuits--have rules that address that problem,

 

 12   rules that allow someone to change the designation

 

 13   of a particular order from unpublished and

 

 14   uncitable to published.  In the Seventh Circuit,

 

 15   which has an extremely liberal rule, local rule

 

 16   53(d)(3) provides that any person may request by

 

 17   motion that a decision by unpublished order be

 

 18   issued as a published opinion.  The First Circuit

 

 19   local rule 36 is similar, although it refers to any

 

 20   party or other interested person, so it's a little

 

 21   more restrictive than ours and it does specify that

 

 22   good cause must be shown.  The Fourth Circuit has

 

                                                                41

 

  1   an even stricter rule, giving the right to make

 

  2   such a motion to counsel, and the Fifth Circuit

 

  3   allows any judge of the court or any party to make

 

  4   such a request.

 

  5             My suggestion is that if there's serious

 

  6   concern that the occasional noncitable order was

 

  7   misclassified as something that merely applies

 

  8   existing law and instead it really does advance the

 

  9   law somehow, then maybe we ought to look at this

 

 10   error correction device that's a much more targeted

 

 11   device.  I can't even remember sitting on panels of

 

 12   the Seventh Circuit when we have denied such a

 

 13   motion.  We grant them with extraordinary

 

 14   liberality.

 

 15             Now I'm sure if CNN came in and said we're

 

 16   hereby filing a motion to publish everything, we

 

 17   wouldn't--I mean that's not the point of this rule.

 

 18   That would take us right back to proposed Rule

 

 19   32.1.  But that's not how it happens and if a

 

 20   lawyer who is preparing a brief in a case runs

 

 21   across an unpublished disposition that seems to

 

 22   fall in this category, they can make a motion.  You

 

                                                                42

 

  1   don't have to be linked to the case.  You don't

 

  2   have to be anything.  You can just be a concerned

 

  3   citizen.

 

  4             Maybe you're a person who practices a lot

 

  5   in the Social Security area.  That was one such

 

  6   case I remember, where we thought we had done

 

  7   something extremely routine, we issued it as an

 

  8   unpublished order.  We got a motion from somebody

 

  9   who I know has an active Social Security practice

 

 10   in Chicago, not a lawyer in the case, who said

 

 11   you've actually said something that nobody's really

 

 12   said before; would you please publish it?  We said

 

 13   sure.  We reissued it as a published opinion and

 

 14   now it's out there.

 

 15             So that, I think, is the better way to go

 

 16   if there is a concern that in this vast ocean of

 

 17   orders floating out there, most of which, as I

 

 18   said, are quite routine and not really worthy of

 

 19   citation, let's do that instead.  I think proposed

 

 20   Rule 32.1 goes the wrong way.  I urge the committee

 

 21   to abandon this route and leave things as they are

 

 22   for now.  Thank you.

 

                                                                43

 

  1             JUDGE ALITO:  Thank you, Judge Wood.

 

  2             Any questions?

 

  3             MR. LETTER:  I found your comments very

 

  4   thoughtful and you've obviously given this a lot of

 

  5   consideration and, as I say, very thoughtful.  I

 

  6   had a couple of questions for you.

 

  7             From a practitioner perspective I had a

 

  8   situation not long ago in one of the circuits that

 

  9   doesn't allow citation of unpublished orders.  I

 

 10   found about four or five unpublished orders

 

 11   dismissing a particular kind of interlocutory

 

 12   appeal.  These orders were all issued within about

 

 13   a two-year period.  There were no published

 

 14   opinions on point, which is sort of not surprising.

 

 15   This was simply a procedural issue on an

 

 16   interlocutory appeal.

 

 17             As I was looking at that, were I a judge,

 

 18   I would very much want an attorney to be able to

 

 19   give me that information and tell me that by the

 

 20   way, in the last several years your same court has

 

 21   dismissed four or five of these.  Does that worry

 

 22   you?  Aren't you frustrated that you cannot get

 

                                                                44

 

  1   that kind of information from the attorneys?  Or is

 

  2   the answer your law clerks will find it and you

 

  3   don't need the attorneys, anyway?

 

  4             JUDGE WOOD:  Well actually, my answer is a

 

  5   third one, which is that certainly in the Seventh

 

  6   Circuit if you found those, all you'd have to do is

 

  7   file a motion to make the best one or a couple of

 

  8   them published and that would be a way of calling

 

  9   it to our attention.

 

 10             MR. LETTER:  Although I often find I

 

 11   discover these probably about a week before the

 

 12   brief was due.  I think that's probably very

 

 13   standard among attorneys.  You don't find these

 

 14   things six months in advance.

 

 15             JUDGE WOOD:  Right.  Maybe you practice in

 

 16   circuits where the bar doesn't use the opportunity

 

 17   to file supplemental authority requests as often as

 

 18   we see them.  I see them on the morning of oral

 

 19   argument not uncommonly, so I really question

 

 20   whether if you found it a week before you wouldn't

 

 21   have any way of getting it to our attention.

 

 22             We, in fact, in that kind of situation,

 

                                                                45

 

  1   even if we're doing an interlocutory order, if it's

 

  2   something like that--suppose we don't think

 

  3   mandamus is the right vehicle or something like

 

  4   that--we're as likely as not to publish that

 

  5   opinion.  That's the first thing we talk about--is

 

  6   this anything that's out there?  And if we've made

 

  7   a mistake, in our circuit you should call it to our

 

  8   attention and I think that would solve your problem

 

  9   altogether.

 

 10             The other thing is in terms of that, I

 

 11   think the judges probably do know what their

 

 12   practice is on interlocutory orders but if they

 

 13   don't, there are ways without opening Pandora's box

 

 14   to address the particular situation you're talking

 

 15   about.  Make a motion to publish.

 

 16             MR. LETTER:  The second is are you

 

 17   troubled by the fact that--and here I understand

 

 18   your practice--your meaning the Seventh Circuit's

 

 19   practice--may be different from the other three

 

 20   circuits that have similar rules--are you troubled

 

 21   by the fact that your unpublished decisions

 

 22   actually are citable and cited in almost every

 

                                                                46

 

  1   other federal court in the United States?  Most of

 

  2   the circuits and virtually every district court,

 

  3   your unpublished opinions can and are cited.  I see

 

  4   district court briefs all the time and they

 

  5   routinely cite unpublished court of appeals

 

  6   opinions.

 

  7             So, as I say, does it trouble you that

 

  8   your court is in this tiny, tiny minority when

 

  9   actually these opinions are widely cited and

 

 10   citable, perfectly proper within the rules?  Does

 

 11   that give you concern?

 

 12             JUDGE WOOD:  Well, I guess my reaction to

 

 13   that--actually, the approach we take to citation of

 

 14   other circuits' opinions in our court is to follow

 

 15   what that other circuit's rule is.  So if it's a

 

 16   circuit that has a very liberal citation rule,

 

 17   fine.  In a way it's like res judicata.  You know,

 

 18   you give the same weight that the issuing court is

 

 19   going to give to it, so we do the same thing with

 

 20   citation practices.

 

 21             Our responsibility is for the development

 

 22   of the law of the Seventh Circuit and if somebody

 

                                                                47

 

  1   else is off in some other place citing an

 

  2   unpublished order of ours, I just have to trust

 

  3   that the readers will give it what weight they wish

 

  4   to give it.  It's not the law of the circuit and it

 

  5   could be misleading.  That's not a good thing and

 

  6   that's what we're trying to signal by having

 

  7   emblazoned across the top of the page, "Not to be

 

  8   cited, unpublished order," but I don't have any

 

  9   power to tell the other circuits what they want to

 

 10   have or not.  So I regret that it's misleading but

 

 11   I can't really do anything about it.

 

 12             MR. LETTER:  And the last question is do

 

 13   you have concerns that, for instance, in this

 

 14   current term of the Supreme Court, there are at

 

 15   least five that I found and there may be more of

 

 16   the Supreme Court's docket are reviewing

 

 17   unpublished court of appeals decisions?  So these

 

 18   are decisions that in particular courts could not

 

 19   even be cited to those courts and yet they are the

 

 20   subject of Supreme Court review.  And, in fact, one

 

 21   of them, I think, took up 50 pages in the printed

 

 22   appendix that was filed with the cert petition.

 

                                                                48

 

  1             So the Supreme Court has at least five and

 

  2   maybe more of those this term.  I was wondering

 

  3   does that trouble you at all?

 

  4             JUDGE WOOD:  You're talking about

 

  5   something very near and dear to my experience.  I

 

  6   don't know if you remember a few terms ago the Kilo

 

  7   case having to do with whether thermal imaging is a

 

  8   search, but that was a petition for cert granted

 

  9   from an unpublished order of the Seventh Circuit,

 

 10   on which I happened to be on the panel.

 

 11             Now why did we decide that--in fact, they

 

 12   reversed.  The reason our order was unpublished was

 

 13   because we had had exactly the same issue in the

 

 14   Seventh Circuit not two years before; we had issued

 

 15   a fully reasoned published opinion saying that we

 

 16   thought that thermal imaging was not a search.

 

 17   That opinion is cited throughout the unpublished

 

 18   order.  In fact, the only thing the unpublished

 

 19   order really says is, "Here are the facts.  We

 

 20   think this is squarely governed by this earlier

 

 21   case," because nobody on the en banc court wanted

 

 22   to hear the earlier case back when it was issued. 

 

                                                                49

 

  1   It was the law of the circuit and we were bound to

 

  2   it.

 

  3             So the Supreme Court, for whatever

 

  4   reason--as we know, they have many reasons for

 

  5   taking cases or not taking cases at the time

 

  6   petitions for cert are presented--the Supreme Court

 

  7   didn't take the earlier case.  So anyone who wanted

 

  8   to know the position of our circuit had only to

 

  9   read the unpublished order, see what was the

 

 10   published precedential opinion on which it relied,

 

 11   and they were fully aware of what it was.

 

 12             The Supreme Court chose to take the later

 

 13   case.  They reversed.  They said no, actually

 

 14   thermal imaging is a search, it's not just

 

 15   something that's out there.  And it didn't bother

 

 16   me at all, to tell you the truth, because in

 

 17   keeping with my obligation to follow the law of the

 

 18   circuit, to have to keep publishing the same thing

 

 19   over and over again when it's really just governed

 

 20   by this thing is crazy.

 

 21             MR. LETTER:  I'm not talking about

 

 22   publishing.  The question is citation.

 

                                                                50

 

  1             JUDGE WOOD:  But I don't buy that there's

 

  2   a difference.  I think citability and precedential

 

  3   value are inseparably linked.  And, as I said, in

 

  4   the Seventh Circuit for certainly as long as I've

 

  5   been on the court there has never been any such

 

  6   thing as an actual unpublished opinion.  We've

 

  7   never had a situation where somebody had to march

 

  8   into the clerk's office and pick up a copy of it.

 

  9   We've had a very active website for a very long

 

 10   time, so it was all available, a least for people

 

 11   with computers it was available, and Westlaw has

 

 12   picked them up--I can't even remember, but

 

 13   certainly for a very long time.

 

 14             MR. LETTER:  Thank you.

 

 15             MR. LEVY:  Let me follow up briefly, if I

 

 16   might, on Doug's first set of questions.  Do I

 

 17   understand correctly that motions to publish a

 

 18   previously unpublished decision can be made years

 

 19   after the issuance of the opinion?  And about how

 

 20   long would it take the court to act on such a

 

 21   motion?

 

 22             JUDGE WOOD:  I think there's no time

 

                                                                51

 

  1   limit.  I'm trying to think what the times have

 

  2   been when I've been faced with those things and

 

  3   certainly I can remember a year in one case.  It's

 

  4   not like within the time for a petition for cert or

 

  5   any such thing.  I suppose at some point it's not

 

  6   really very interesting anymore because the court's

 

  7   probably moved on in whatever the area is but

 

  8   there's no specific time limit on it.  We generally

 

  9   act on it pretty quickly.

 

 10             When I get a motion like that obviously it

 

 11   goes to the panel but the authoring judge will have

 

 12   the leading oar on that.  I'll consult my panel.

 

 13   I'll go back and take a look at it because if I'm

 

 14   going to turn it into a published opinion, I want

 

 15   to make sure it's right.  You know, I go through

 

 16   that extra process that Judge Bright was talking

 

 17   about just to make sure that I haven't

 

 18   inadvertently misstated the McDonnell-Douglas test

 

 19   or done something silly, you know, that I shouldn't

 

 20   have done.

 

 21             So I don't think there is.  I've never

 

 22   seen one that was like five years late but I think

 

                                                                52

 

  1   within a fairly reasonable range there's no time

 

  2   limit.

 

  3             JUDGE ROBERTS:  First of all, Judge Wood,

 

  4   thank you very much for coming and visiting with us

 

  5   and I want to second your point that judges are not

 

  6   lazy and underworked.  I think there's no dispute

 

  7   about that.

 

  8             JUDGE WOOD:  None of at the table, right?

 

  9             JUDGE ROBERTS:  But I want to focus a

 

 10   little bit on a tension that I see in the arguments

 

 11   against the proposed rule that on the one hand,

 

 12   these--I don't really know what to call them--the

 

 13   unpublished, the noncitable, whatever, opinions are

 

 14   not worth very much; they just sort of apply

 

 15   existing law to the specific parties.  And then the

 

 16   other argument that well, if you allow the citation

 

 17   of them, lawyers are going to have this extra

 

 18   burden of going and looking at them and judges are

 

 19   going to have to look at them.

 

 20             Traditionally I think in our adversary

 

 21   system we allow disputes about the value of citable

 

 22   materials to be resolved by the lawyers in the

 

                                                                53

 

  1   exercise of their professional judgment in the

 

  2   interest of their client and let the judges decide

 

  3   whether we think that's worth anything, whether

 

  4   it's an opinion from another circuit, a district

 

  5   court opinion, a student comment in a law review.

 

  6   And a lot of the arguments seem to focus on the

 

  7   quality, the merit, the worth of the noncitable

 

  8   precedents but not so much on the solution of not

 

  9   allowing them to be cited and I wondered if you

 

 10   could address why that is the best solution, as

 

 11   opposed to, for example, many of the circuits have

 

 12   discouraging language saying you should realize we

 

 13   don't take these very seriously.

 

 14             You know, my experience over the last 10

 

 15   months, I think I've seen non--whatever we call

 

 16   them--nonprecedential memoranda, whatever, probably

 

 17   twice.  Two different times I've seen that cited,

 

 18   even though it's freely citable in our circuit,

 

 19   because the lawyers know the judges aren't terribly

 

 20   impressed by it.

 

 21             On the other hand, as a lawyer I've had

 

 22   situations where that is the exact case.  It's a

 

                                                                54

 

  1   year ago.  Maybe two of the judges are on the same

 

  2   panel.  However basic the proposition, in my

 

  3   professional judgment this is what I want that

 

  4   court to know on my client's behalf and I found it

 

  5   frustrating to have a rule saying you can't do

 

  6   that.

 

  7             So it's a long wind-up but focus on the

 

  8   problem that the rule's addressed to, which is the

 

  9   noncitability, even agreeing whatever you want to

 

 10   postulate as to how valuable or invaluable all of

 

 11   that body of law is.

 

 12             JUDGE WOOD:  Well, I have a couple of

 

 13   reactions.  I don't want to sit here and say that

 

 14   there's absolutely no wheat among this chaff

 

 15   because there probably is and, as I said, I think

 

 16   that our device for catching it is one that works

 

 17   pretty well.  There is a sorting process for the

 

 18   lawyers to find that one case, wading through all

 

 19   of those on the whole, as I said, to be quite

 

 20   honest, incredibly boring unpublished noncitable

 

 21   orders that we issue--boring only in the sense that

 

 22   they're so repetitive after a while, not, of

 

                                                                55

 

  1   course, to the parties whose case it is.

 

  2             So I worry from the point of view of the

 

  3   lawyer who is trying to persuade the court to do

 

  4   something feeling an ethical obligation to conduct

 

  5   that sorting process.  Lawyers, as you know, as

 

  6   Judge Bright said, are of vastly different

 

  7   abilities and some lawyers are not going to be as

 

  8   discriminating as you would be, I am confident.  We

 

  9   read briefs like this all the time.

 

 10             In fact, sometimes that factual match is

 

 11   so misleading.  You know, it's not really the legal

 

 12   principle that's at issue in the case.  Maybe the

 

 13   case is in a different posture.  Maybe it's a

 

 14   somewhat different set of problems that are before

 

 15   us.

 

 16             And I think what we're touching on is

 

 17   actually a very delicate area for the federal

 

 18   judiciary, which is the fact that in a case--for

 

 19   courts like the intermediate courts of appeals in

 

 20   the federal judiciary, just as for most state

 

 21   intermediate courts of appeals, we perform two

 

 22   functions.  We're usually performing the function

 

                                                                56

 

  1   in our compulsory jurisdiction of error review

 

  2   where we're looking at a particular case to make

 

  3   sure the district judge got it right.  District

 

  4   judges usually do get it right, number one.

 

  5             And number two, when we're doing that

 

  6   there's real law out there.  We all apply it the

 

  7   same.  I tell people you can pick any random panel

 

  8   you want of the Seventh Circuit and we will agree

 

  9   on 90 percent of the cases.  It's just that clear.

 

 10             So that's our error correction function

 

 11   and I think there's a pretty close correlation

 

 12   between the things that wind up as these noncitable

 

 13   orders and at least a subset of the cases that are

 

 14   applying that.  Somebody said how many times do you

 

 15   need to read the proposition that when a criminal

 

 16   defendant calls up a witness and threatens him

 

 17   before the trial, that an obstruction of justice

 

 18   enhancement is appropriate under the sentencing

 

 19   guidelines?  We know that.  This is not a

 

 20   proposition that is subject to serious debate.  And

 

 21   lots of appeals, given the draconian sentences that

 

 22   people get, are of that nature.

 

                                                                57

 

  1             Or did the district court clearly err when

 

  2   the court decided not to give an acceptance of

 

  3   responsibility adjustment?  It's a pretty

 

  4   straightforward thing.

 

  5             So again yes, there's a little bit of

 

  6   wheat.  How do we find it?  How do we solve this

 

  7   problem?  If you really feel that to represent your

 

  8   client properly you need to call that to the

 

  9   court's attention I think jettisoning the ability

 

 10   of courts to separate out that second group of

 

 11   cases, the group of cases for the real development

 

 12   of the law, is a vastly over-inclusive solution to

 

 13   the problem.

 

 14             JUDGE ALITO:  I wondered if I could get

 

 15   your reaction to a comment that was made by one of

 

 16   your colleagues who submitted a comment in support

 

 17   of the proposed rule, and that is that this is

 

 18   basically an empirical question.  Even given the

 

 19   variations in the circuits that you pointed out,

 

 20   would it not still be possible to do a systematic

 

 21   study of the effect of no-citation rules or the

 

 22   absence of no-citation rules in the various

 

                                                                58

 

  1   circuits?

 

  2             And if it would be possible to do such a

 

  3   study and if such a study were to show that the

 

  4   adverse consequences that have been predicted have

 

  5   not materialized in the circuits that permit

 

  6   citation, do you think that you and your colleagues

 

  7   who have written in opposition to this proposed

 

  8   rule would feel that that merited reconsideration

 

  9   of their position?

 

 10             JUDGE WOOD:  Well, I'm certainly familiar

 

 11   with the colleague in the letter to which you refer

 

 12   and in a world of unlimited resources, how could I

 

 13   be opposed to one more empirical study?  I think a

 

 14   study would have to be constructed very carefully

 

 15   to adjust for the differences I was talking about

 

 16   because if the circuit, in fact, just to use rough

 

 17   numbers, has as fully precedential published

 

 18   opinions fully half of its output, it's doing

 

 19   something different than a circuit that has only 20

 

 20   percent of its output that way.  And I think some

 

 21   very sophisticated techniques would need to be

 

 22   brought to bear to make sure that one was not, in

 

                                                                59

 

  1   fact--you know, if you ask the wrong question

 

  2   you'll get the wrong answer and that's a risk that

 

  3   I think is a serious one in such a study.

 

  4             Now having said that, I think that I also

 

  5   want to throw into the hopper the fact that the

 

  6   states have vast experience with this, as well.

 

  7   Most of the states--I think it's still a numerical

 

  8   majority of the states have restrictions on

 

  9   publication of opinions of their intermediate

 

 10   appellate courts.  I know I checked in our circuit

 

 11   and all three of the states in our circuit do.

 

 12   They each have particular criteria for their

 

 13   intermediate appellate courts to publish opinions.

 

 14   Some states may have no restrictions whatsoever and

 

 15   if you're thinking of a study, maybe that's

 

 16   actually a better way to control for these

 

 17   differences than looking at the various Courts of

 

 18   Appeals would be.  I'm not sure.

 

 19             I doubt actually in the final analysis

 

 20   that if I were to be told that a complete free

 

 21   market for citability was out there I would still

 

 22   think it was worth having a fourfold increase in

 

                                                                60

 

  1   the number of potentially citable things out there

 

  2   on a nationwide basis but, as I said, I think it

 

  3   really depends.  It's a resource question and it's

 

  4   also a question of whether this is the most burning

 

  5   problem on your docket or whether there are other

 

  6   things that you might wish to put those resources

 

  7   to.  But any such study would have to be very

 

  8   carefully constructed.

 

  9             JUDGE STEWART:  Just as a follow-up,

 

 10   doesn't your answer suggest, though, that--I mean

 

 11   assuming the study's done and it unquestionably

 

 12   shows a lot of these workload burden notions that

 

 13   have been put out here don't prove out, that the

 

 14   opposition to the rule still really boils down to

 

 15   sort of the way you've characterized it, as

 

 16   citability and precedential are linked?  I think

 

 17   that's an interesting term of art and in reading

 

 18   all the comments, I don't see that as a predominant

 

 19   viewpoint but that's another issue.

 

 20             Isn't it really more the self-governance

 

 21   notion?  In other words, saying if a ton of

 

 22   evidence from the study came to show that all these

 

                                                                61

 

  1   workload notions just don't prove out, don't you

 

  2   allow for the fact that you and perhaps your

 

  3   circuit would be opposed to the rule simply because

 

  4   it cuts into the self-governance and this merging

 

  5   of citability?  Because you cite in support of the

 

  6   position you take about potentially increasing the

 

  7   Supreme Court's cert docket and intracircuit--I

 

  8   mean with all due respect, I don't see how that's

 

  9   quantified or there's any data to really back that

 

 10   up.

 

 11             So I mean at bottom, isn't there really

 

 12   sort of a philosophical disagreement with this rule

 

 13   based on the premise of citability and precedential

 

 14   merged together and kind of a notion of

 

 15   self-governance?

 

 16             JUDGE WOOD:  Well, I certainly think that

 

 17   I and my colleagues do think that a certain amount

 

 18   of self-governance in each circuit is appropriate

 

 19   since the circuits are, in fact, so different and

 

 20   there are so many things--just to give you an

 

 21   example, the Seventh Circuit never sits a week at a

 

 22   time.  We have a different panel every day.  I sit

 

                                                                62

 

  1   every week of every month.  We're very

 

  2   geographically compact.  Somebody hops on the train

 

  3   in South Bend or Milwaukee, travels 90 miles and

 

  4   they're in Chicago.  That doesn't look at all like

 

  5   the Ninth Circuit.

 

  6             The reason, actually just for the record,

 

  7   that I said what I did about intracircuit

 

  8   conflicts, I actually do think we have a certain

 

  9   empirical base for because the larger circuit, such

 

 10   as the Ninth Circuit with a vastly greater number

 

 11   of dispositions of any type each year, do have the

 

 12   risk of more intracircuit conflicts.

 

 13             We all try, of course, to avoid those but

 

 14   when there are that many more cases out there, are

 

 15   you really going to remember every last thing,

 

 16   every last nuance of every panel?  I think it's

 

 17   humanly very difficult to do.

 

 18             So my sense is just if you quadruple or

 

 19   quintuple the number of dispositions out there this

 

 20   is, in fact, a serious risk, both within circuits

 

 21   and for the country as a whole.

 

 22             So it does partly get down to what you

 

                                                                63

 

  1   think we're doing, whether you think we're

 

  2   focussing on self-governance and the like, and how

 

  3   we want to develop the law.  We're responsible for

 

  4   the development of the law at the circuit level

 

  5   until the Supreme Court tells us we're wrong, of

 

  6   course, and if we think that focussing on the

 

  7   opinions that receive that full process that Judge

 

  8   Bright was talking about are the ones where we want

 

  9   to develop it, then maybe we should do that.  I

 

 10   think that's certainly been my position.

 

 11             One thing I didn't stress in my oral

 

 12   remarks but certainly was in the letter that the

 

 13   rest of us on the Seventh Circuit submitted to this

 

 14   committee is the fact that in our circuit the

 

 15   process that yields a published precedential

 

 16   opinion is considerably more elaborate than the

 

 17   process that yields an unpublished noncitable

 

 18   order.  A published opinion is almost invariably

 

 19   the result of oral argument and everything that

 

 20   that entails--you know, public discussion with the

 

 21   lawyers, an opportunity to explore whatever the

 

 22   issues may be, the ability to deliberate with one's

 

                                                                64

 

  1   colleagues--whereas our unpublished orders are

 

  2   those where we decide in conference, obviously

 

  3   still panels of three judges, with the assistance

 

  4   of the staff attorneys.  I don't want to be here

 

  5   saying that I think our staff attorneys do a bad

 

  6   job because I don't think so.  Actually I think

 

  7   they do an excellent job and we're responsible,

 

  8   anyway.  I don't want to be in a position of saying

 

  9   that here's this second-class work product.  But it

 

 10   is not as elaborate a procedure.  It's a devil's

 

 11   deal that we've all made for the last 30 years

 

 12   because of the incredible workload.

 

 13             If you don't get oral argument--we

 

 14   probably have all had the experience in oral

 

 15   argument that somebody every so often says

 

 16   something that you really didn't realize was in the

 

 17   case, that makes you understand that the issue is a

 

 18   narrower issue or a broader issue or the facts were

 

 19   not really adequately portrayed in the person's

 

 20   brief, and we pick up all that in our published

 

 21   opinions and we don't necessarily--obviously

 

 22   there's some risk of errors in these pro se

 

                                                                65

 

  1   rambling, disjointed things that are presented to

 

  2   us and we make the best of it that we can and come

 

  3   out with an unpublished order.  So they really do

 

  4   strike me as two different kinds of things, in the

 

  5   end.

 

  6             JUDGE ALITO:  Any other questions?

 

  7             Judge Wood, thank you very much.  We

 

  8   appreciate your coming very much.

 

  9             JUDGE WOOD:  Thank you.

 

 10             JUDGE ALITO:  Richard Frankel.

 

 11             We're running quite a bit late and I would

 

 12   appreciate it if the witnesses would try to keep

 

 13   their prepared remarks to about 10 minutes, to no

 

 14   more than 10 minutes, so that we have ample time to

 

 15   follow up with questions from the members of the

 

 16   committee.

 

 17             Mr. Frankel, thank you for coming.

 

 18             MR. FRANKEL:  My remarks run a little bit

 

 19   longer so feel free to tell me to stop.

 

 20             JUDGE ALITO:  Okay.

 

 21                   STATEMENT OF RICHARD FRANKEL

 

 22             MR. FRANKEL:  My name is Richard Frankel

 

                                                                66

 

  1   and I'm here on behalf of Trial Lawyers for Public

 

  2   Justice and my testimony relates to proposed

 

  3   Federal Rule of Appellate Procedure 32.1 concerning

 

  4   the citation of unpublished opinions.

 

  5             Generally speaking we wholeheartedly

 

  6   endorse the committee's proposed rule for many of

 

  7   the same reasons stated in the Advisory Committee

 

  8   note accompanying the proposed rule and we believe

 

  9   that the committee should approve it.  At the same

 

 10   time however, we believe that the proposed rule

 

 11   does not go far enough and we would urge the

 

 12   committee to consider issuing a new proposed rule,

 

 13   one that would require all appellate decisions to

 

 14   be given the weight of binding precedent.

 

 15             And in support of that position, I wish to

 

 16   stress three points this morning:  one, that

 

 17   allowing courts to issue unpublished decisions

 

 18   which do not make law is contrary to our rule-based

 

 19   system of lawmaking; two, issuing decisions that do

 

 20   not make law creates both the perception and

 

 21   unfortunately the reality that courts issue

 

 22   nonrule-based and inconsistent decisions; and

 

                                                                67

 

  1   three, the fact that requiring all decisions to be

 

  2   given the weight of binding precedent will increase

 

  3   judicial workload cannot justify an approach that

 

  4   violates the basic principles of the American

 

  5   judicial system.

 

  6             Our first point is that unpublished

 

  7   opinions are contrary to rule-based decisionmaking.

 

  8   Our legal system is predicated on the idea that

 

  9   society should be governed by the rule of law and

 

 10   not the rule of men and women.  Courts preserve the

 

 11   rule of law by issuing decisions that both apply

 

 12   the law and create law.

 

 13             As the Honorable Judge Wood just recently

 

 14   stated very succinctly, our courts are public

 

 15   courts and they exist not merely to arbitrate

 

 16   dispute or just to decide cases.  However, when

 

 17   courts issue unpublished or nonprecedential

 

 18   decisions, they undermine both of those facets of

 

 19   the rule of law system because they neither

 

 20   articulate a lasting principle of law through their

 

 21   decisions; nor do they require future courts to

 

 22   apply the law that was used in their previous

 

                                                                68

 

  1   unpublished decisions.  Without a system that binds

 

  2   future courts to follow its own past decisions,

 

  3   nothing ensures that courts will act according to

 

  4   principle rather than personal opinion.

 

  5             This, in turn, erodes another basic

 

  6   principle of our judicial system, the notion of

 

  7   fundamental fairness, that like litigants should be

 

  8   treated alike.   Every litigant who walks into

 

  9   court should be able to have the expectation that

 

 10   he or she will be treated no differently than any

 

 11   other litigant.  However, when courts can issue

 

 12   unpublished decisions in which they can decide an

 

 13   issue one way one day and another way the next day,

 

 14   not only are courts telling those litigants that

 

 15   they are not entitled to have that expectation but

 

 16   additionally, that it is perfectly reasonable and

 

 17   proper for courts to actually treat those litigants

 

 18   differently even though they face almost identical

 

 19   situations.

 

 20             We believe the only way to truly preserve

 

 21   a rule of law system is to require that all

 

 22   appellate decisions actually be given the force of

 

                                                                69

 

  1   law, both present and future, by giving them

 

  2   binding precedential weight.

 

  3             Our second major point is that the

 

  4   practice of issuing unpublished decisions creates

 

  5   both the perception and sadly, the reality of a

 

  6   two-tiered system of justice in which courts are

 

  7   not engaging in rule-based decisionmaking.

 

  8             First in terms of perception, whether or

 

  9   not it is actually true, unpublished decisions send

 

 10   a message that courts are engaging in

 

 11   results-oriented decisionmaking.  When a court

 

 12   announces a result in a case but says that the

 

 13   principle underlying that result in the case need

 

 14   not be followed, it sends the message that courts

 

 15   are more interested in getting the result that they

 

 16   want than in the principle underlying that result.

 

 17             Whereas with published opinions the court

 

 18   shows faithful adherence to the rule of law by

 

 19   starting out by identifying an appropriate legal

 

 20   principle and then applying that principle to see

 

 21   which result follows, with unpublished opinions it

 

 22   appears that the court starts out with the result

 

                                                                70

 

  1   and then expressly disclaims the lasting value of

 

  2   any reasoning used to reach it.  As a result, the

 

  3   system creates two different levels of justice

 

  4   being administered, one for published decisions and

 

  5   another for unpublished decisions.

 

  6             And this perception of results-oriented

 

  7   decisionmaking is, in fact, reinforced by many of

 

  8   the statements that judges have themselves made in

 

  9   their comments to this committee in which they

 

 10   state that in many unpublished decisions the only

 

 11   thing that a panel will agree upon is the result in

 

 12   the case and not necessarily the reasoning used to

 

 13   reach it and moreover, that lawyers in lower courts

 

 14   would actually be affirmatively misled if they were

 

 15   to rely on reasoning that is while printed and

 

 16   stated in the decision, doesn't actually reflect

 

 17   the collective agreement of the panel.  This also

 

 18   exacerbates public perceptions that judges may be

 

 19   motivated more by results than they are by

 

 20   principle.

 

 21             Now in terms of reality, it's also true

 

 22   that unpublished decisions have resulted in a

 

                                                                71

 

  1   reality where inconsistent decisions result.  In

 

  2   our written comments we have highlighted a number

 

  3   of examples of inconsistent decisionmaking within a

 

  4   circuit on identical issues that have been caused

 

  5   by the use of unpublished decisions.  In one

 

  6   notable example, the case of United States versus

 

  7   Rivera-Sanchez, which was a published decision of

 

  8   the Ninth Circuit, that panel noted 20 previous

 

  9   unpublished decisions all addressing the same issue

 

 10   but resolving that issue in three different ways.

 

 11             This shows that this problem actually is

 

 12   real and occurring within circuits and it's not

 

 13   something that should be dismissed as merely

 

 14   abstract or theoretical and we believe that the

 

 15   only way that this problem truly can be rectified

 

 16   is to make all decisions binding and precedential.

 

 17             Our third and final point is that the fact

 

 18   that judicial workload will increase as a result of

 

 19   making all decisions binding and precedential

 

 20   cannot justify a radical departure from a

 

 21   rule-based legal system.

 

 22             Now of course, as almost all commenters

 

                                                                72

 

  1   have conceded, it's inevitable, given that judges

 

  2   spend more time on published opinions than they do

 

  3   on unpublished ones, if you require publication of

 

  4   all decisions as precedent, judicial workload is

 

  5   going to increase.  And under our proposed rule,

 

  6   judges are going to face very difficult choices

 

  7   about how to allocate their time.  They may either

 

  8   decide to issue more summary one-line or even

 

  9   one-word dispositions or to spend less time on

 

 10   opinions that they currently designate as published

 

 11   and we recognize this is going to happen.  However,

 

 12   this framework is preferable to allowing the

 

 13   continued use of unpublished decisions, we think,

 

 14   for several reasons.

 

 15             The first is that as we have already

 

 16   expressed, mandatory publication as binding

 

 17   precedent is the only way to truly preserve notions

 

 18   of rule-based law-making and fundamental fairness

 

 19   and these principles represent the heart of the

 

 20   judicial function and should not at the drop of a

 

 21   hat, we think, be readily sacrificed at the alter

 

 22   of time savings for appellate judges.

 

                                                                73

 

  1             Second, it may be that the use of summary

 

  2   dispositions, while certainly not ideal, could be

 

  3   preferable to the use of unpublished opinions in

 

  4   many cases.  Given that judges have already stated

 

  5   that a lot of cases they agree on a result but they

 

  6   may not agree on the reasoning, it may not make

 

  7   sense to issue an unpublished decision that

 

  8   contains reasoning that does not reflect the

 

  9   opinion of the panel but to also issue a result

 

 10   that they do agree upon but that is not binding.

 

 11   It may make more sense to make that result binding

 

 12   but then to exclude the reasoning that creates the

 

 13   possibility of lawyers and lower court judges being

 

 14   misled.

 

 15             Third, while judicial workload, we admit,

 

 16   will increase, we believe that the amount that it

 

 17   will increase or the concerns that have been

 

 18   addressed by critics of this rule are somewhat

 

 19   exaggerated and we have several reasons why we

 

 20   think this is so.

 

 21             The first, as the committee is well aware,

 

 22   nine of 13 federal circuits already permit citation

 

                                                                74

 

  1   of unpublished opinions in some form for their

 

  2   persuasive value.  And while there may not be a lot

 

  3   of data already out there, there's no indication

 

  4   that the opinions in those circuits have fallen in

 

  5   quality as judges devote more time to their

 

  6   unpublished decisions or that lawyers and lower

 

  7   court judges are being misled by erroneously

 

  8   relying on unpublished decisions.

 

  9             Second, while certainly not exclusively,

 

 10   an overwhelming number of commenters who have

 

 11   expressed this workload concern are lawyers and

 

 12   judges that practice within the jurisdiction of the

 

 13   Ninth  Circuit, which suggests that while it may

 

 14   not be a problem unique to the Ninth Circuit,

 

 15   perhaps it's a problem certainly much more

 

 16   pronounced in the Ninth Circuit.  And this is not

 

 17   to say that it is not a real problem but a problem

 

 18   of limited geographical scope certainly should not

 

 19   be the driving force behind national policy-making

 

 20   and should not be a reason to reject either the

 

 21   proposed rule or the idea of making all decisions

 

 22   binding and precedential.

 

                                                                75

 

  1             Third, the available statistics that are

 

  2   out there do not support the contention that

 

  3   judicial workload will radically increase.  One

 

  4   study by Dean Robel of Indiana University Law

 

  5   School shows no correlation between a circuit's

 

  6   per-judge workload and the percentage of opinions

 

  7   that that circuit chooses to publish.

 

  8             There was another study cited in Law and

 

  9   Contemporary Problems in 1998 which shows a wide

 

 10   disparity in the number of opinions published by

 

 11   individual judges.  It studied a two-year span and

 

 12   showed that within that span a number of active

 

 13   judges published as many as 120 opinions while

 

 14   other judges, also active judges, published as few

 

 15   as 20, which suggests that it's possible that there

 

 16   may be ample room for judges to significantly

 

 17   increase the number of opinions that they publish

 

 18   without detracting from the quality of judicial

 

 19   decisionmaking.

 

 20             And finally, while it's true that judicial

 

 21   workload will increase in the short run, we think

 

 22   there's a possibility that requiring all decisions

 

                                                                76

 

  1   to be binding and precedential could actually

 

  2   reduce judicial workload and the workload of

 

  3   lawyers in the long run by stopping repetitive

 

  4   litigation, by establishing a firm rule of

 

  5   precedent and filling in ambiguities in existing

 

  6   precedent so that you don't have a case like United

 

  7   States versus Rivera-Sanchez that must be decided

 

  8   21 times rather than a single time, and also by

 

  9   providing greater guidance to lower court judges

 

 10   and to lawyers about what the state of the law is

 

 11   so that they have a better idea of whether appeals

 

 12   can and should be filed, and this could ultimately

 

 13   reduce the number of appeals that ultimately will

 

 14   be filed.

 

 15             Our final conclusion would be that as many

 

 16   commenters have stated this morning and in their

 

 17   comments, both for and against the rule, they seem

 

 18   to acknowledge that unpublished opinions are a bit

 

 19   of an unfortunate practice in that in an ideal

 

 20   world every judicial opinion would give the time

 

 21   and attention that it deserves and whatever path

 

 22   the committee decides to take with respect to

 

                                                                77

 

  1   unpublished opinions, we think it makes little

 

  2   sense to acknowledge the lamentability of the

 

  3   practice of issuing unpublished opinions and then

 

  4   to adopt a rule structure that both enshrines and

 

  5   perpetuates that practice.  If they truly are

 

  6   flawed and imperfect, then they should not be

 

  7   condoned but they should be eliminated.

 

  8             JUDGE ALITO:  Thank you, Mr. Frankel.

 

  9             Any questions?

 

 10             MR. LETTER:  I just had one question for

 

 11   you.  The statute that sets up this process, 20 USC

 

 12   I think it's 207.1, says specifically that the

 

 13   Supreme Court can promulgate rules of practice and

 

 14   procedure but those rules cannot affect substantive

 

 15   rights.

 

 16             The proposal that you're making, at least

 

 17   to me, raises the question that we would be

 

 18   recommending and the Supreme Court would be

 

 19   adopting a rule that is not practice and procedure

 

 20   but would be substantive.  It would be telling the

 

 21   courts, setting a rule for them that certain

 

 22   opinions bear precedential weight, meaning have

 

                                                                78

 

  1   substance, and isn't that beyond the statutory

 

  2   power of the Supreme Court and therefore this

 

  3   committee?

 

  4             MR. FRANKEL:  Well, I would say that to

 

  5   the extent that it would be, I would think that the

 

  6   rule that allows courts to establish their own

 

  7   rules regarding unpublished opinions would do the

 

  8   same thing by allowing courts to deprive--

 

  9             MR. LETTER:  But that rule just says what

 

 10   you can cite in your brief.  It doesn't say

 

 11   anything about whether that opinion is or is not to

 

 12   govern the substantive rule of law in the case.

 

 13             MR. FRANKEL:  Well, I understood, at least

 

 14   from reading Professor Schiltz's summary of the

 

 15   comments, and I may have misunderstood it or

 

 16   misinterpreted it, that originally there was some

 

 17   rule passed in the early '60s or the 1970s that

 

 18   allowed this practice of unpublished opinions.

 

 19   Before there was a practice of issuing unpublished

 

 20   opinions all decisions were published and given

 

 21   precedential weight and there was some shift that

 

 22   allowed the use of unpublished opinions in a way

 

                                                                79

 

  1   that therefore allowed courts to deprive those

 

  2   decisions of having any precedential weight.

 

  3             MR. LETTER:  I may be wrong but I think

 

  4   those were decisions or rules by the courts

 

  5   themselves, either in opinions or in their own

 

  6   rules, which may or may not be valid.  But again

 

  7   this committee and the Supreme Court are bound by

 

  8   the statute, which says we cannot set

 

  9   substantive--we cannot affect substantive rights.

 

 10             MR. FRANKEL:  I don't know whether that

 

 11   rule would be substantive or procedural in the

 

 12   sense that you're not--you're only saying what

 

 13   decisions should be given the force of law but

 

 14   you're not saying what that law would be and I

 

 15   don't know whether that would be classified as

 

 16   substantive or procedural.

 

 17             JUDGE ALITO:  Do you really think that

 

 18   court of appeals judges could write 100 or 150

 

 19   opinions a year, precedential opinions a year,

 

 20   without experiencing an enormous decrease in the

 

 21   quality of the opinions?

 

 22             MR. FRANKEL:  I mean I obviously don't

 

                                                                80

 

  1   have the experience of being a federal judge, so

 

  2   certainly I would show some deference to the

 

  3   opinions of judges who have expressed that some

 

  4   degree in quality would occur.

 

  5             Judicial workload increases all the time

 

  6   and judges seem to find ways to continue to fulfill

 

  7   their judicial duties without sacrificing quality.

 

  8   I mean the number of appeals, even though more and

 

  9   more are being issued as unpublished opinions,

 

 10   increases every year and this increases a judge's

 

 11   workload and I think that like I said, they may

 

 12   have to find ways of reallocating their time

 

 13   between published--between how they allocate time

 

 14   on opinions.

 

 15             It may be that some opinions can be issued

 

 16   without spending as much time that is currently

 

 17   spent on them.  They could be written in more

 

 18   narrow ways.  It could be that summary dispositions

 

 19   could be used in certain cases, as I mentioned in

 

 20   my comments.

 

 21             I think there's no question that a

 

 22   judicial workload is going to increase but judicial

 

                                                                81

 

  1   workload always increases and that doesn't mean

 

  2   that we always take steps that deny litigants their

 

  3   opportunities to have fundamental fairness

 

  4   protected, so I think there are ways that judges

 

  5   can do it.

 

  6             MR. SVETCOV:  I'm from San Francisco.  I

 

  7   practice in the Ninth Circuit.  So now you want me

 

  8   to read not only the 777 published opinions in my

 

  9   circuit but the other 4,800 that are not published,

 

 10   even though once a panel in my circuit in a

 

 11   published opinion sets the law of the circuit, that

 

 12   is the law of the circuit and everything else is

 

 13   merely an application of that principle to various

 

 14   sets of facts, many of which are very much like the

 

 15   one in the first panel opinion?

 

 16             Why are you asking me to digest 5,000

 

 17   extra opinions each year in my practice?  I mean

 

 18   you're forgiving the judges.  They could write

 

 19   summary--you say they can write summary judgments.

 

 20   Why do I have to learn that much more law?  What is

 

 21   it about uniformity that makes that a worthwhile

 

 22   principle for me, practicing in the Ninth Circuit?

 

                                                                82

 

  1             MR. FRANKEL:  Well, I would answer that

 

  2   question in several ways.  The first is that

 

  3   available studies that I've seen, particularly the

 

  4   one conducted by Dean Robel, shows that most

 

  5   lawyers practicing within circuits, including the

 

  6   Ninth Circuit, already regularly read, rely and

 

  7   cite to unpublished decisions.

 

  8             Secondly--

 

  9             MR. SVETCOV:  Trust me; I never do.

 

 10             MR. FRANKEL:  Then I guess there are

 

 11   exceptions to every rule.

 

 12             Secondly, many times unpublished cases are

 

 13   cited because there are holes in existing precedent

 

 14   and if you made those decisions precedential,

 

 15   instead of when you now do research and you

 

 16   initially find the case most on point is an

 

 17   unpublished case but you have to continue doing

 

 18   research because that case cannot be cited, if that

 

 19   was the first case that you found, this would

 

 20   substantially save your research time.

 

 21             MR. SVETCOV:  In my circuit we can find

 

 22   cases on both sides that are already published.

 

                                                                83

 

  1             MR. FRANKEL:  Well, if they're already

 

  2   published, truly if the cases are truly repetitive

 

  3   and they're not going to add anything to your

 

  4   research time, then there's no need to continue to

 

  5   read them.  But to the extent that they do add

 

  6   persuasive reasoning that is not contained in

 

  7   current published opinions, then whether those

 

  8   opinions are citable or not, lawyers have a duty to

 

  9   find that reasoning and to use that reasoning,

 

 10   whether or not they cite the case in their

 

 11   arguments to the court and whether the case is

 

 12   ultimately citable or not or persuasive or

 

 13   precedential doesn't change that.

 

 14             MR. SVETCOV:  Why doesn't Judge Wood's

 

 15   proposal, which I think is true in many circuits,

 

 16   that a motion to publish would resolve that

 

 17   situation in those rare cases?

 

 18             MR. FRANKEL:  I would have two answers to

 

 19   that question.  One is that although, at least it

 

 20   seems in the Seventh Circuit and in many other

 

 21   circuits, any interested member of the public can

 

 22   move to publish a case, those who are going to be

 

                                                                84

 

  1   most aware of it are the lawyers in the case and

 

  2   you're leaving it up to the lawyers in those cases

 

  3   to decide whether or not they think that case

 

  4   merits publication.

 

  5             Second, if the case does not get

 

  6   published, then you still have the risk of

 

  7   inconsistent results occurring and the risk that

 

  8   litigants who walk into court will not be treated

 

  9   equally and in our mind that is the most important

 

 10   concern and the one that must be protected, whether

 

 11   or not a motion to publish is made.

 

 12             Third, it may be that you only want to

 

 13   publish--you find out that you want to publish a

 

 14   case--the case might be useful to you several years

 

 15   after the decision is published and I guess there

 

 16   are procedures to decide how to publish a case, but

 

 17   if the original author of the opinion perhaps is no

 

 18   longer on the court, it may be difficult for a

 

 19   court to decide whether they think that opinion

 

 20   merits publication or not.

 

 21             JUDGE ALITO:  Any other questions?

 

 22             Thank you, Mr. Frankel.  We appreciate

 

                                                                85

 

  1   your comments very much.

 

  2             Mr. Judah Best of Debevoise & Plimpton on

 

  3   behalf of the ABA Section of Litigation.

 

  4                     STATEMENT OF JUDAH BEST

 

  5             MR. BEST:  Good morning.  My name is Judah

 

  6   Best.  I wrote it down so that I couldn't forget

 

  7   it.  I'm of counsel to the law firm of Debevoise &

 

  8   Plimpton.  I'm a former chair of the Section of

 

  9   Litigation of the American Bar Association.

 

 10             Some of you know me in one of my other

 

 11   capacities.  I was chair of the Standing Committee

 

 12   on the Judiciary and prior to that I had been on

 

 13   the committee for a number of years.  I see at

 

 14   least one face that's familiar to me in that

 

 15   context.

 

 16             I'm also a Litigation Section delegate to

 

 17   the House of Delegates of the American Bar

 

 18   Association.  By the way, the Litigation Sectoin is

 

 19   composed of 70,000 trial lawyers.

 

 20             In the capacity as a member of the House

 

 21   of Delegates, in the summer of 2001 I presented to

 

 22   that house a resolution urging that the American

 

                                                                86

 

  1   Bar Association oppose the practice of various

 

  2   federal Courts of Appeals in prohibiting citation

 

  3   to or reliance upon their unpublished opinions as

 

  4   contrary to the best interest of the public,

 

  5   contrary to the best interest of the legal

 

  6   profession.  The resolution was passed by the House

 

  7   of Delegates and is the official policy of the

 

  8   American Bar Association.  A copy of the resolution

 

  9   and the accompanying report are attached to my

 

 10   testimony, which has been presented to this

 

 11   committee.

 

 12             Now in the interest of the committee's

 

 13   time, I will limit my remarks today to two topics.

 

 14   First, that all opinions, whether binding precedent

 

 15   or not, should be published, as provided by the

 

 16   Advisory Committee in proposed Rule 32.1.  Second,

 

 17   that the new rule should be uniform.  That is to

 

 18   say the rule should not allow for opt-outs but

 

 19   should govern all circuits.  I think it's sort of

 

 20   higgly-piggly, as I will explore later in my

 

 21   remarks, to see the differences in the circuits.

 

 22             Approximately 80 percent of the opinions

 

                                                                87

 

  1   published by circuit courts today are noncircuit

 

  2   binding.  In most circuits today the opinions are

 

  3   released to publication in the most widely used

 

  4   database services, Lexis and Westlaw.

 

  5   However--it's a big however--it was only recently

 

  6   that the First and Third Circuits began releasing

 

  7   their decisions and the Fifth and Eleventh Circuits

 

  8   still withhold them.  And, by the way, that is true

 

  9   of many state appellate courts, as well.

 

 10             One huge problem is the so-called

 

 11   institutional litigants, the ones who have the

 

 12   opinions--the United States Attorneys, the

 

 13   government agencies, insurance companies, and the

 

 14   like.  They're far more likely than others to have

 

 15   access to the unpublished opinions.  After all,

 

 16   they have a continuing, focussed interest and they

 

 17   set up a library of relevant decisions and I think

 

 18   that gives an unfair advantage to one side.

 

 19             I had personal experience with this.

 

 20   Several years ago I was engaged to counsel a

 

 21   defendant in a criminal appeal.  I went through the

 

 22   familiar process of reviewing the record, sorting

 

                                                                88

 

  1   out the issues, choosing those that seemed most

 

  2   promising and abandoning those that did not.  I

 

  3   found an important issue on which there was a split

 

  4   among the circuits and no published opinion in the

 

  5   circuit where the matter was situated.  I said

 

  6   published opinion, so that's the caveat.  I

 

  7   counseled that the issue was one of first

 

  8   impression in that circuit.

 

  9             To my chagrin, the United States Attorneys

 

 10   Office produced an unpublished opinion that was

 

 11   contrary to my stated position.  Actually they

 

 12   presented it in the circuit in which it was

 

 13   inappropriate to present it, but they did so.

 

 14   Frankly, I felt that I had been had.  The U.S.

 

 15   Attorneys Office simply had more access to the law

 

 16   than my client did and he and I were at an unfair

 

 17   disadvantage.

 

 18             And this is not an isolated instance.  I

 

 19   believe it happens constantly in jurisdictions

 

 20   where opinions are not published but are available

 

 21   and accessible to the institutional litigant.

 

 22             You have developed what I would call the

 

                                                                89

 

  1   homer situation.  Indeed, Professor Lauren Robel,

 

  2   an acknowledged authority in this area, has

 

  3   conducted survey research demonstrating that

 

  4   institutional litigants do, in fact, collect,

 

  5   catalogue and use unpublished opinions in ways not

 

  6   available to other litigants.  Professor Robel has

 

  7   also pointed out that institutional litigants have

 

  8   every incentive to, and I quote, "stack the

 

  9   precedential deck by moving for reporter

 

 10   publication (and therefore circuit-bindingness) of

 

 11   unpublished cases with outcomes that they favor,

 

 12   while allowing the unfavorable decisions to remain

 

 13   unpublished and occult."  And I cite her quotation

 

 14   in my prepared remarks.

 

 15             It's no answer to suggest that

 

 16   anti-citation rules can solve this sort of problem.

 

 17   I don't think they can.  As the chief judge of one

 

 18   circuit has put it, and I quote, "Commentators have

 

 19   argued that the no-citation rule may work to

 

 20   increase rather than decrease the unfairness to the

 

 21   uninitiated lawyer.  If the sophisticated attorney

 

 22   uses arguments or language drawn from the

 

                                                                90

 

  1   unreported case without citing it, his uninitiated

 

  2   opponent is unlikely to learn of its existence.  In

 

  3   sum, if unreported opinions are cited, the

 

  4   uninitiated lawyer can remedy his deficiency; if

 

  5   they cannot be cited, he may not even know a

 

  6   deficiency exists."

 

  7             Now there's another concern and that is

 

  8   that if none of the lawyers know about the occult

 

  9   opinion, the court or its law clerks will know

 

 10   about it.  Judges acknowledge that they read the

 

 11   unpublished opinions and it is impossible to

 

 12   believe they do not consider the reasoning of those

 

 13   opinions when faced with similar fact patterns or

 

 14   arguments, so I think you have to read those 4,000

 

 15   unpublished opinions because the judges are reading

 

 16   them.

 

 17             But the lawyer who cannot research the

 

 18   day-to-day rulings of the appellate bench in a

 

 19   particular area will be that much less prepared to

 

 20   counsel his or her clients.  Binding or not, the

 

 21   unpublished opinions are a pretty good indicator of

 

 22   what a judge thinks on a particular issue in a

 

                                                                91

 

  1   particular context and a faithful recordation of

 

  2   what she or he does in 80 percent of her cases.

 

  3             If one lawyer can get that information and

 

  4   the other cannot, that is not fair.  If the judge

 

  5   has that information and the lawyer does not, that

 

  6   is also not fair.

 

  7             Now there's a deeper problem that must

 

  8   also be dealt with.  Although the circuit rules may

 

  9   rationalize the nonbindingness of some opinions on

 

 10   the theory that they have nothing new to say, the

 

 11   inescapable fact discussed by William Hangley, who

 

 12   is sitting behind me and will be speaking soon, in

 

 13   a wonderful article published in Federal Rules

 

 14   Decisions, is that they often do break new legal

 

 15   ground.  The widely felt suspicion is that there

 

 16   are important decisions out there but they cannot

 

 17   be accessed.  Now that cannot be good for the law

 

 18   as an institution.  In fact, we believe it is

 

 19   destructive to law and is not respectful to law.

 

 20             Let's talk about uniformity for a minute.

 

 21   I am aware that the Advisory Committee has

 

 22   consciously decided not to include a local opt-out

 

                                                                92

 

  1   provision in the proposed rule.  We congratulate

 

  2   the committee on that judgment and we urge that you

 

  3   hold to it.  I believe that a local opt-out would

 

  4   leave us with essentially the same Babel of

 

  5   inconsistent rules and practices--I think I used

 

  6   the term higgly-piggly before--in this area that

 

  7   face us today.

 

  8             The circuits have adopted a bewildering

 

  9   variety of inconsistent rules for the handling of

 

 10   unbinding opinions.  Some circuits publish.  Some

 

 11   do not.  Some circuits allow you to cite them

 

 12   subject to various tests.  Others prohibit you from

 

 13   citing them in almost all circumstances.  One

 

 14   circuit seems to be saying that you may cite them

 

 15   but the court will either ignore them or refrain

 

 16   from mentioning them.

 

 17             In Mr. Hangley's article he summarizes the

 

 18   views of the various circuits as follows.  One, you

 

 19   cannot read our nonbinding opinion, A, First

 

 20   Circuit until recently, you must not talk about

 

 21   them.  B, Eleventh and Fifth Circuits in some

 

 22   cases, you may talk about them but first you have

 

                                                                93

 

  1   to find them.  Fifth Circuit in other cases, we

 

  2   discourage you from talking about them even if you

 

  3   find them; however, they are binding and we will

 

  4   apply them against your client.  D, Third Circuit

 

  5   until very recently, you are welcome to talk about

 

  6   them if you can find them; however, we'll not pay

 

  7   any attention.  Alice in Wonderland, ladies and

 

  8   gentlemen?

 

  9             You can read our nonbinding opinions

 

 10   but--Fourth, Sixth, Eighth, Tenth and for some

 

 11   cases District of Columbia Circuit--we prefer that

 

 12   you not talk about them.  Second, Seventh, Ninth

 

 13   Federal and for other cases District of Columbia

 

 14   Circuits, as well as recently First Circuit, you

 

 15   must not talk about them.  Third Circuit very

 

 16   recently, we still will not pay any attention to

 

 17   them.

 

 18             I don't mean to make a comedy of it but I

 

 19   think it's sort of revealing to place it in this

 

 20   context.

 

 21             To make matters worse, several of the

 

 22   circuits, including my own District of Columbia

 

                                                                94

 

  1   Circuit, have a sort of comity rule that prohibits

 

  2   citation of out-of-circuit opinions that could not

 

  3   be cited in the courts which wrote them.  That

 

  4   means that every appellate lawyer must become

 

  5   expert in the local rules of every circuit before

 

  6   he can cite and out-of-circuit case.

 

  7             I heard one commentator say well, these

 

  8   are really not problems because some lawyers or

 

  9   many lawyers only argue in their own circuit.  That

 

 10   is an answer but in my case I'm a member--I don't

 

 11   collect membership in circuits but I'm a member of

 

 12   the First, Second, Fourth, Fifth, Eleventh, Eighth,

 

 13   and Ninth Circuits and I've appeared in all of

 

 14   those circuits.  There is something known as planes

 

 15   and trains, so lawyers do get around these days.

 

 16             There's simply no need for all this

 

 17   complexity.  Traditionally lawyers and judges have

 

 18   not hesitated to cite the words of novelists,

 

 19   comedians, athletes and cartoon characters, not as

 

 20   binding precedent but simply for whatever

 

 21   persuasive value they may have.  There is no good

 

 22   reason for judges to treat their own words or the

 

                                                                95

 

  1   words of their colleagues any differently a priori

 

  2   and to set up artificial barriers to their

 

  3   citation.

 

  4             In conclusion, I again congratulate the

 

  5   committee upon its promulgations and

 

  6   recommendations of Rule 32.1 and it is my view and

 

  7   that of the Litigation Sectoin that the new rule is

 

  8   badly needed.  Thank you very much.

 

  9             JUDGE ALITO:  Thank you.

 

 10             Questions?  Carol?

 

 11             MS. MOONEY:  I have two questions.  You

 

 12   talked first about the unfair advantage to

 

 13   institutional litigants or even judges knowing

 

 14   about opinions that a lawyer does not.  Will that

 

 15   unfair advantage not disappear with the

 

 16   E-Government Act?

 

 17             MR. BEST:  I don't know that it will or it

 

 18   won't.  We discussed that as we heard the reliance

 

 19   on the E-Government Act.  I can't predict that.  I

 

 20   know that it's a jungle now.  I don't know that the

 

 21   act is going to clarify that jungle and I think it

 

 22   would be better if you do it the old-fashioned way

 

                                                                96

 

  1   and publish the opinions.

 

  2             MS. MOONEY:  Secondly, you seem to be

 

  3   making the distinction that the first two witnesses

 

  4   were not making; that is, separating citability

 

  5   from an opinion's binding or precedential value.

 

  6   At least a couple of our witnesses collapsed those

 

  7   two things.  Could you explain how you believe--

 

  8             MR. BEST:  I'm not sure that I believe

 

  9   there's any significance.  I think citability and

 

 10   precedential value, of course, is very important.

 

 11   I don't think I'm distinguishing between those two

 

 12   concepts.  I may be mentioning them in different

 

 13   aspects of the same problem.

 

 14             MS. MOONEY:   I thought you had.  Thank

 

 15   you.

 

 16             MR. SVETCOV:  Mr. Best, thank you very

 

 17   much.  Let me ask you a question.

 

 18             MR. BEST:  You're going to have to read

 

 19   those 4,000 opinions.

 

 20             MR. SVETCOV:  Well, let me ask you a

 

 21   question.  If the unpublished opinion begins with

 

 22   the following sentence, "The parties are familiar

 

                                                                97

 

  1   with the facts," and then goes on to discuss four

 

  2   or five different contentions let's say in a

 

  3   criminal case or a summary judgment case, how does

 

  4   one go about citing that?

 

  5             JUDGE LEVI:  I think there's something

 

  6   known as footnotes.

 

  7             MR. SVETCOV:  If "The parties are familiar

 

  8   with the facts" is the first sentence of the mem

 

  9   dispo, many of the Ninth Circuit decisions that are

 

 10   unpublished begin with that sentence and then go on

 

 11   over three or four pages to discuss contentions of

 

 12   law and answer the question and give the parties a

 

 13   disposition on the contentions raised without any

 

 14   explication of the facts, how do I as a subsequent

 

 15   practitioner looking at that disposition use it in

 

 16   my practice?

 

 17             MR. BEST:  It's a question of whether or

 

 18   not--I understand what you meant.  I didn't

 

 19   understand what you were saying before.  I think I

 

 20   would use it in seeing if it's generally a state of

 

 21   facts that requires further elaboration by me and I

 

 22   suppose I would try to get the record on appeal and

 

                                                                98

 

  1   see what the case is all about.

 

  2             MR. SVETCOV:  You would do that?

 

  3             MR. BEST:  I wouldn't do it in 4,000 and

 

  4   you wouldn't do it in 4,000 cases.

 

  5             MR. SVETCOV:  Exactly.

 

  6             MR. BEST:  But if something in the case is

 

  7   arresting in that circumstances, I might very well

 

  8   want to see the record on appeal.  It's a rule of

 

  9   reason, like everything else.

 

 10             MR. SVETCOV:  You listened to Judge Wood's

 

 11   testimony about the fact that circumstances are

 

 12   different in different circuits.  Not only the

 

 13   number of published versus unpublished opinions but

 

 14   the fact that in the Fourth Circuit 10 percent of

 

 15   the cases are published and in the Seventh Circuit

 

 16   43 percent of the cases are published.

 

 17             Doesn't that suggest that a

 

 18   one-size-fits-all uniform rule may not be the best

 

 19   answer for this particular problem but rather, that

 

 20   diversity is the better answer, rather than

 

 21   uniformity?  And you were able to figure out--you

 

 22   and Mr. Hangley were able to figure out all the

 

                                                                99

 

  1   various nuances in the various circuits on rules of

 

  2   publication.  They're not difficult to figure out.

 

  3   Why is uniformity better than diversity here?

 

  4             MR. BEST:  I think there should be a

 

  5   presumption toward uniformity and to the extent

 

  6   that you want to deviate from that, there must be

 

  7   exceptional circumstances that require it.  I doubt

 

  8   that there are.  I think uniformity is good.  I

 

  9   think that--

 

 10             MR. SVETCOV:  I've spent my whole life

 

 11   fighting for diversity.  I'm not about to change--

 

 12             MR. BEST:  You're using it in a different

 

 13   context.

 

 14             It's a homer concept.  You know all of the

 

 15   problems in your circuit.  You know how to deal,

 

 16   just as I know cases like Smith v. Pollan and very

 

 17   arcane ways of doing things in the District of

 

 18   Columbia Circuit, but we're trying to have a

 

 19   uniform application and I think that's important.

 

 20             MR. SVETCOV:  I go down to the Fifth

 

 21   Circuit all the time.  I can figure out the rules.

 

 22             MR. BEST:  I congratulate you.

 

                                                               100

 

  1             JUDGE ALITO:  Any other questions of Mr.

 

  2   Best?

 

  3             Thank you very much.  We appreciate it.

 

  4             Professor Stephen R. Barnett of Boalt Hall

 

  5   Law School.

 

  6                 STATEMENT OF STEPHEN R. BARNETT

 

  7             MR. BARNETT:  Good morning.  My name is

 

  8   Stephen Barnett.  I'm an emeritus professor of law

 

  9   at Boalt Hall in Berkeley.  I thank the chair and

 

 10   the committee for allowing me to testify today on

 

 11   the proposed FRAP Rule 32.1, which I strongly

 

 12   support.

 

 13             This committee has been hit by an

 

 14   avalanche of public comments and I confess to

 

 15   having contributed my share.  In addition to this

 

 16   morning's statement, I earlier submitted comments

 

 17   in reply, in part, to Judge Kozinski's comments.

 

 18   In the spirit of expiation then, I thought I might

 

 19   be most useful to the committee this morning by

 

 20   offering some analysis of what's in that daunting

 

 21   pile of 500 plus comments, so that's what I propose

 

 22   to do briefly this morning.

 

                                                               101

 

  1             That great legal realist, Holmes--that's

 

  2   Sherlock, not Wendell--famously solved a case by

 

  3   pointing to the dog that did not bark.  What I find

 

  4   most telling in the comments here is a whole

 

  5   kennelful of dogs that did not bark.  The proposed

 

  6   rule, after all, would require four federal

 

  7   circuits to do essentially what the other nine

 

  8   federal circuits already do--allow their

 

  9   unpublished dispositions to be cited.  That's also

 

 10   what a growing number of states, now 22 of them,

 

 11   already do. We thus have actual contemporaneous

 

 12   experience in both the federal and state courts

 

 13   with what rules that are equivalent to 32.1, in

 

 14   fact, do.

 

 15             What we have in almost all of the 500

 

 16   comments meanwhile are predictions about bad things

 

 17   that will happen if the rule is adopted.  If those

 

 18   predictions are accurate, we would expect to see

 

 19   some evidence of such bad things in jurisdictions

 

 20   where equivalents of Rule 32.1 have been adopted.

 

 21   We would expect judges and lawyers from the nine

 

 22   circuits that allow citation of their unpublished

 

                                                               102

 

  1   opinions, the citable circuits if you will, to have

 

  2   filed comments saying to this committee don't do

 

  3   it; we did it and look what happened to us.  We'd

 

  4   expect those comments to lay out in painful detail

 

  5   all the adverse consequences that have been

 

  6   suffered in those circuits as a result of making

 

  7   opinions citable and we'd expect to get the same

 

  8   kind of reports from judges and lawyers in the 22

 

  9   states where unpublished opinions are now citable.

 

 10             What we get, however, in the entire stack

 

 11   of comments is virtually no such reports.  This is

 

 12   the number one dog that did not bark.  In their

 

 13   silence on this point the comments validate what

 

 14   Judge Frank Easterbrook wrote in his comment.

 

 15   "What would matter are adverse effects and adverse

 

 16   reactions from the bar or judges of the nine

 

 17   circuits and 21 states that now allow citation to

 

 18   unpublished orders and from that quarter no protest

 

 19   has been heard," says Judge Easterbrook.

 

 20             Specifically I will report briefly on

 

 21   three groups of lawyers or judges in the citable

 

 22   circuits from whom one would have expected to hear

 

                                                               103

 

  1   of such adverse effects if they existed.  These are

 

  2   circuit judges, lawyers, and federal public

 

  3   defenders.  Then I'll report on three additional

 

  4   groups--first, additional public defenders in the

 

  5   citable circuits whom I surveyed myself, then

 

  6   lawyers in the Ninth Circuit, and federal circuit

 

  7   judges in the four no-citation circuits.

 

  8             First, federal circuit judges in the nine

 

  9   citable circuits.  The comments received from

 

 10   federal circuits judges in the nine circuits where

 

 11   citation to unpublished orders is now allowed are

 

 12   striking in three respects--first, their paucity;

 

 13   second, their failure to report adverse reactions

 

 14   or effects from such citability; and third, their

 

 15   failure to refer to, let alone criticize, their own

 

 16   circuit's pro-citation rules.

 

 17             In the first place, the number of comments

 

 18   from circuit judges in the citable circuits is only

 

 19   eight.  In my written statement I said six but two

 

 20   came in subsequent to that.  These two letters from

 

 21   Judge Burch of the Eleventh Circuit and Chief Judge

 

 22   Loken of the Eighth Circuit are puzzling.  They

 

                                                               104

 

  1   oppose the proposed rule and they report that other

 

  2   judges in their circuit are opposed without

 

  3   mentioning that their own circuits both have rules

 

  4   allowing citation of unpublished opinions--that is,

 

  5   the Eighth and the Eleventh--rules comparable to

 

  6   FRAP 32.1.  Neither of these letters refers to the

 

  7   existing rule in the writer's own circuit, let

 

  8   alone criticizes it and says it's terrible.

 

  9             And one of all eight letters point to

 

 10   adverse effects from the current regimes of

 

 11   citability in the writer's own circuits.  To the

 

 12   extent that they refer at all to the citation rules

 

 13   of their circuits, these letters mostly praise

 

 14   those rules.  And I would call your attention to

 

 15   Judge Ebel's letter from the Tenth Circuit, Judge

 

 16   Michael from the Fourth Circuit, Judge Martin from

 

 17   the Sixth.

 

 18             And Judge Bright this morning was eloquent

 

 19   on the point.  He's a wonderful natural experiment,

 

 20   if you will, since he's sat in all these circuits

 

 21   with all these different citation rules and he said

 

 22   he sees no difference.  He's afraid there would be

 

                                                               105

 

  1   a difference under FRAP 32.1 because it would bar

 

  2   what I call discouraging words.  Well, as I've

 

  3   argued in my comments, I don't think it would bar

 

  4   them, so I think the one difference Judge Bright

 

  5   sees would not, in fact, be there.

 

  6             So that's judges from the citable

 

  7   circuits.  With respect to lawyers from the nine

 

  8   citable circuits, if you rule out Washington

 

  9   lawyers who, with the exception of Mr. Best and

 

 10   some others, may not focus particularly on the D.C.

 

 11   Circuit and its citation rule, the letters from

 

 12   lawyers are almost equally sparse.  And while

 

 13   almost all of these comments oppose the proposed

 

 14   rule, their opposition only rarely is based on any

 

 15   harms that they claim to result from the citation

 

 16   that is now allowed in the writer's jurisdiction.

 

 17   Again the dog doesn't bark.

 

 18             With respect to federal public defenders

 

 19   in the nine citable circuits, here, too, you would

 

 20   expect that if they were chaffing under the

 

 21   citation rules in those circuits that they would be

 

 22   saying so now to warn and protect their colleagues

 

                                                               106

 

  1   in the four no-citation circuits.  When one looks

 

  2   for comments from federal public defenders in the

 

  3   circuits that now allow citation, however, I count

 

  4   only four and while these comments oppose the rule,

 

  5   they again don't mention, let alone criticize, the

 

  6   citability rule under which they, in fact,

 

  7   practice.

 

  8             Given the paucity of comments from federal

 

  9   public defenders in circuits allowing citation, I

 

 10   conducted my own little fact-finding inquiry.  I

 

 11   interviewed by telephone eight randomly selected

 

 12   federal public defender attorneys in the Fourth,

 

 13   Fifth, Eleventh and D.C. Circuits and I have their

 

 14   names and my notes of the conversations and am

 

 15   willing to make them available to anyone who wants

 

 16   to see them.

 

 17             Asked whether they thought the citability

 

 18   of unpublished opinions in their circuit added to

 

 19   their research time, the attorneys unanimously said

 

 20   essentially no.  They said "Not a bit" or it

 

 21   doesn't add any burden at all, or perhaps a little

 

 22   bit, such as 2.5 percent.

 

                                                               107

 

  1             In the Fifth Circuit, whose unpublished

 

  2   opinions only recently have been put no line and

 

  3   hence there should be no substantial factor of

 

  4   custom or habit, the appellate chief in Houston

 

  5   reported that there was "no added burden."

 

  6             More than one of the attorneys I

 

  7   questioned expressed surprise and some even

 

  8   derision that their colleagues in the Ninth Circuit

 

  9   were opposed to a rule allowing use of unpublished

 

 10   opinions.  Public defenders in the Ninth Circuit

 

 11   "must be scared of computer research," said one

 

 12   attorney.

 

 13             "No one complains about citability," said

 

 14   the public defender in Dallas.  "This is the kind

 

 15   of research that lawyers do," said more than one

 

 16   attorney.  More than one also noted that an

 

 17   unpublished opinion "can be helpful when it's right

 

 18   on point on the facts."

 

 19             Does citability of unpublished opinions

 

 20   entail a financial burden for public defenders

 

 21   offices?  The attorneys unanimously said no.  Lexis

 

 22   is provided to those offices completely free and

 

                                                               108

 

  1   Westlaw is provided at the special rate of $150 a

 

  2   month, the same rate judges get, I'm told.

 

  3             It was acknowledged, however, that

 

  4   litigants who are pro se or had no right to counsel

 

  5   already are hurt by the cost of Lexis and Westlaw

 

  6   and would be marginally more hurt if unpublished

 

  7   opinions were included in the database.  But, said

 

  8   one attorney, "You go on the merits.  If an opinion

 

  9   is there, it's there."  So my survey gives quite a

 

 10   different picture from that produced by the

 

 11   comments from public defenders in the Ninth

 

 12   Circuit.

 

 13             Let me look now quickly at Ninth Circuit

 

 14   lawyers.  Another notably quiet kennel in this

 

 15   proceeding has been the offices of lawyers within

 

 16   the Ninth Circuit who support the proposed rule.

 

 17   There must be some such lawyers but you wouldn't

 

 18   know it from looking at these comments.  I count

 

 19   more than 100 comments from Ninth Circuit lawyers

 

 20   opposing FRAP 32.1 while the comments from Ninth

 

 21   Circuit lawyers supporting the proposed rules can

 

 22   be counted on one's figures.  How can this be, one

 

                                                               109

 

  1   may wonder?

 

  2             Judge Tashima reports that there was a

 

  3   letter-writing campaign among lawyers in the Ninth

 

  4   Circuit to oppose the new rule, but lawyers are no

 

  5   more herdable than cats.  No mere letter-writing

 

  6   campaign would produce this kind of a landscape.

 

  7   So what did?  How is it that Ninth  Circuit

 

  8   lawyers, so famous for their independence, their

 

  9   fractiousness, their readiness to take on

 

 10   motherhood, apple pie, or recently God, have

 

 11   suddenly found an important legal issue that's

 

 12   highly controversial elsewhere but on which

 

 13   virtually all Ninth Circuit lawyers agree.  How has

 

 14   this committee become such a powerful builder of

 

 15   consensus?

 

 16             The answer lies, of course, not in the

 

 17   fairly counted views of Ninth Circuit lawyers but

 

 18   in the dynamic of self-selection.  The majority of

 

 19   Ninth Circuit judges are known to be strongly

 

 20   opposed to the proposed rule.  Given that fact,

 

 21   lawyers who practice in the Ninth Circuit and who

 

 22   also oppose the rule have every reason to say so,

 

                                                               110

 

  1   and may it please the court.  Lawyers who support

 

  2   the rule, meanwhile, have no need to vote against

 

  3   the judges before whom they practice.  These

 

  4   lawyers just take a walk.  They don't submit

 

  5   comments.  Thus, we get the one-sided results

 

  6   displayed here.

 

  7             With respect to federal circuit judges in

 

  8   the no-citation circuits, we can count the votes

 

  9   pretty much from their comments filed here.  As I

 

 10   have said, the circuits that allow citation have

 

 11   produced only eight comments from circuit judges

 

 12   but what about the four circuits that ban

 

 13   citation--the Second, Seventh, Ninth and Federal?

 

 14   From those quarters there's plenty of opposition to

 

 15   the proposed rule.  It's worth looking closer,

 

 16   however, at the vote counts in these circuits,

 

 17   starting with the Ninth.

 

 18             While the vote count in the Ninth Circuit

 

 19   seems monolithic, 38 judges opposing the rule and

 

 20   only Judge Tashima expressly supporting it, but

 

 21   that may not be the whole story.  Judge Tashima

 

 22   reports that there was a letter-writing campaign

 

                                                               111

 

  1   among both lawyers and judges to oppose the rule.

 

  2   He and Judge Thomas also report that the Ninth

 

  3   Circuit was closely split on the proposed rule.

 

  4   Well, the eventual comments certainly are not

 

  5   closely split but it may be that like Judge Thomas,

 

  6   other Ninth Circuit judges sacrificed their own

 

  7   views on the alter of circuit solidarity.

 

  8             And even so the Ninth Circuit's vote was

 

  9   far from unanimous.  Six active judges did not

 

 10   vote.  There may be a question whether you consider

 

 11   that votes against the majority or not.  The vote

 

 12   among active judges was 23 to seven in the Ninth

 

 13   Circuit--one-sided but not overwhelming.  It's only

 

 14   when you add the senior judges and 15 senior judges

 

 15   oppose the rule while three didn't vote, that the

 

 16   margin became 38 to 10.

 

 17             One may wonder, of course, as with the

 

 18   Ninth Circuit lawyers, how is it that Ninth Circuit

 

 19   judges, so famously independent and ready for

 

 20   dissent, in this case produced only one expressed

 

 21   dissent from 48 judges.  I have no answer to that

 

 22   question.

 

                                                               112

 

  1             Turning to the Federal Circuit, it

 

  2   out-does the Ninth, producing unanimity against the

 

  3   proposed rule.  But the other two no-citation

 

  4   circuits, the Seventh and Second, are split.  In

 

  5   the Seventh Circuit the vote among all judges was

 

  6   nine to six.  Among active judges alone it was

 

  7   eight to three.  I guess those are the figures that

 

  8   Judge Wood reported this morning.  Among the three

 

  9   dissenters, Judges Easterbrook and Ripple both

 

 10   wrote forceful comments supporting the proposed

 

 11   rule.  As Judge Wood indicated, the majority also

 

 12   suggested a fallback compromise based on routinely

 

 13   granting motions for publication.

 

 14             Then in the Second Circuit the vote among

 

 15   all judges was 19 to four opposing the rule.  The

 

 16   19, however, included all 11 of the circuit's

 

 17   senior judges.  Among active judges alone the vote

 

 18   was eight to four.  As in the Seventh Circuit, the

 

 19   Second Circuit majority made a significant

 

 20   compromise suggestion.  This was that if the rule

 

 21   goes forward, it operate only prospectively.

 

 22             Then there's a special fact about the

 

                                                               113

 

  1   Second Circuit that should be noted.  While there

 

  2   was apparently no statement from any dissenting

 

  3   circuit judge in the Second Circuit, there exists a

 

  4   mutiny among the district judges of the Second

 

  5   Circuit.  As I relayed in my statement at page 13,

 

  6   several district judges in the Second Circuit have

 

  7   been citing summary orders of the Second Circuit,

 

  8   in defiance of that court's no-citation rule.  See

 

  9   the Harris case, which is cited in my statement,

 

 10   where Judge Lynch describes the Second Circuit as

 

 11   pretending that this decision never happened.

 

 12             Well, the action of these district judges

 

 13   perhaps suggests the depth of the disagreement in

 

 14   the Second Circuit.  It may also suggest that

 

 15   citability is becoming a de facto norm in the

 

 16   Second Circuit.

 

 17             In sum, the rather close splits in the

 

 18   Seventh and Second Circuits, combined with the

 

 19   suggested fallback compromises by the majority in

 

 20   each case, may indicate that those circuits, the

 

 21   Second and Seventh, do not strongly oppose

 

 22   citability.  That may be particularly so for the

 

                                                               114

 

  1   Second Circuit in which the states of New York,

 

  2   Connecticut and Vermont all allow citation, and it

 

  3   may become so for the Seventh Circuit if Illinois

 

  4   switches to citability and the Rules Committee of

 

  5   the Illinois Supreme Court, I'm told, is meeting

 

  6   later this month on a proposal to switch to

 

  7   citability with respect to at least some orders of

 

  8   the Illinois Courts of Appeal.

 

  9             The bottom line then, the bottom line of

 

 10   the vote count is that of the four no-citation

 

 11   circuits, the Second and Seventh and perhaps even

 

 12   the Ninth are split on the proposed rule.  Only the

 

 13   Federal Circuit is monolithic.

 

 14             In contrast, the nine circuits that permit

 

 15   citation appear to be quite satisfied with the rule

 

 16   that they have.  Not a single judge from a circuit

 

 17   that allows citation and virtually no one else from

 

 18   such a circuit has filed a comment complaining

 

 19   about that rule of citability. This is a remarkable

 

 20   record, it seems to me.  It may not bark but it

 

 21   speaks volumes.  Thank you.

 

 22             JUDGE ALITO:  Thank you, Professor

 

                                                               115

 

  1   Barnett.

 

  2             Questions?

 

  3             MR. SVETCOV:  Professor Barnett, I have to

 

  4   confess that I graduated from Boalt Hall four years

 

  5   ago and I guess--

 

  6             MR. BARNETT:  One of our most

 

  7   distinguished graduates.

 

  8             MR. SVETCOV:  Except that I probably am

 

  9   getting an F in your class on publication.  But

 

 10   don't you account for the Hound of the Baskervilles

 

 11   in your presentation in Judge Wood's description of

 

 12   the different ways in which circuits treat

 

 13   unpublished opinions, the various percentages of

 

 14   cases that are not published, and in particular,

 

 15   the ways in which unpublished opinions are crafted.

 

 16             Namely, as I mentioned to Mr. Best a few

 

 17   minutes ago, in the Ninth Circuit the great

 

 18   majority of unpublished opinions begin with the

 

 19   words, "The parties are familiar with the facts."

 

 20   Then the discussion that follows is a discussion of

 

 21   the legal issues that were raised by the appellant

 

 22   and are disposed of for the benefit of the parties

 

                                                               116

 

  1   who are familiar with the facts.  As a practicing

 

  2   lawyer in the Ninth Circuit, I don't see how I

 

  3   could make very much use of that type of opinion.

 

  4             I contrast that with cases that are

 

  5   sometimes published in the State of California in

 

  6   which the judges will spend 30 pages laying out all

 

  7   of the facts and addressing all of the legal issues

 

  8   fully, but they don't publish because California,

 

  9   as you know, has a rule that says once there's a

 

 10   principle of law in place in a court of appeal

 

 11   decision, that applications of that rule are not to

 

 12   be published.

 

 13             So you do have these different types of

 

 14   opinions.   Doesn't that mitigate in favor of

 

 15   diversity rather than uniformity?

 

 16             MR. BARNETT:  Well, I have my own

 

 17   arguments with the state judges in California about

 

 18   this, too.  I think you have to ask whether it's

 

 19   underlying essential differences that make the

 

 20   difference or whether it's practices that the

 

 21   judges have acquired perhaps for reasons that are

 

 22   not congruent with the best interest of the

 

                                                               117

 

  1   judiciary and the litigants.

 

  2             For example, if you compare these

 

  3   California state decisions with state decisions in

 

  4   New York, you find it's roughly the same number of

 

  5   cases decided each year, about 12,000.  In New York

 

  6   all published, all with opinions, all citable.  In

 

  7   California, 93 percent not citable.  And you may

 

  8   say isn't that just a difference in cultures?  I

 

  9   say yes, but maybe it shows that California ought

 

 10   to be doing something differently.

 

 11             MR. SVETCOV:  I'm from New York

 

 12   originally.

 

 13             MR. BARNETT:  So am I.

 

 14             MR. SVETCOV:  I want to also disabuse you

 

 15   of the notion that those of us who oppose this rule

 

 16   do it because we want to kiss our circuit's behind.

 

 17             MR. BARNETT:  I didn't say that.

 

 18             MR. SVETCOV:  I testified in front of the

 

 19   White Commission in favor of some sort of

 

 20   divisional operation of my circuit and there was no

 

 21   repercussions one way or the other from that and I

 

 22   don't think any of us who have a position on this

 

                                                               118

 

  1   rule or any other do so because we think we're

 

  2   going to gain anything from the judges in our

 

  3   circuit.  We have a lot more respect for them and

 

  4   they have for us.

 

  5             MR. BARNETT:  I do, too, and I didn't say

 

  6   that.  I said lawyers who oppose the rule will say

 

  7   so.  I didn't say that lawyers would take that

 

  8   position for any reason other than the merits.

 

  9             MR. SVETCOV:  And trust me; lawyers who

 

 10   favor the rule say so and I was in a meeting just

 

 11   this past week in which the chair of the Advisory

 

 12   Committee to the Ninth Circuit Rules Committee, Les

 

 13   Weatherhead, took the exact opposite position I did

 

 14   and he didn't write in but his views are there and

 

 15   we know how the lawyers feel about this.  There are

 

 16   lawyers--

 

 17             MR. BARNETT:  How do you explain, then,

 

 18   that there are perhaps no more than half a dozen

 

 19   letters here from California lawyers supporting the

 

 20   rule?

 

 21             MR. SVETCOV:  I think, Professor Barnett,

 

 22   you have to recognize that there are different

 

                                                               119

 

  1   cultures, there are different bodies of law.  In

 

  2   the Fourth Circuit there may not be cases on all

 

  3   the issues.  In our circuit there are cases all

 

  4   over the ballpark and they are already published.

 

  5             You know, you've heard of the term junk

 

  6   science?

 

  7             MR. BARNETT:  Yes.

 

  8             MR. SVETCOV:  In the Ninth Circuit these

 

  9   cases come under the heading of junk law.

 

 10             MR. BARNETT:  So your answer is that there

 

 11   are no lawyers out there who support the rule?

 

 12             MR. SVETCOV:  I didn't say that.

 

 13             MR. BARNETT:  I'm sorry.

 

 14             MR. SVETCOV:  I'm just saying that a lot

 

 15   of these cases are not worth pursuit as precedent

 

 16   or for citation as mock precedent.

 

 17             JUDGE ELLIS:  Don't you think it's just as

 

 18   disrespectful to assume that lawyers who don't

 

 19   complain are afraid of judges as it is to say that

 

 20   lawyers who oppose it want to kiss the butts of

 

 21   judges?  It's just as disrespectful of the lawyers.

 

 22   If they didn't write in, we can only assume they

 

                                                               120

 

  1   don't have feelings strong enough to move them to

 

  2   put pen to paper, just as we assume that you're

 

  3   very passionate about it.  You have articles, you

 

  4   have letters, you've analyzed it in great depth, so

 

  5   I understand you have passion.  We must assume, I

 

  6   suppose, that the others don't have passion, not

 

  7   that they're afraid of judges.

 

  8             MR. BARNETT:  I don't want to attack

 

  9   California lawyers in any way but these are all

 

 10   California lawyers presumably with similar

 

 11   attitudes about when they think it's worth it to

 

 12   write a letter on a matter like this and when they

 

 13   don't and we have this astonishing record that

 

 14   there are 100 or more letters on one side and less

 

 15   than half a dozen on the other and I'm trying to

 

 16   find an explanation for that.

 

 17             JUDGE ELLIS:  Why isn't the explanation

 

 18   that some care enough about the merits to write;

 

 19   others don't think it makes a hill of beans and

 

 20   they don't write?  Not that they're afraid of

 

 21   judges or that they want to kiss judges' butts.

 

 22             JUDGE ALITO:  Judge Levi?

 

                                                               121

 

  1             JUDGE LEVI:  Just one point.  It's quite

 

  2   typical in these rules matters that the

 

  3   overwhelming letters, particularly on a

 

  4   controversial matter, will be opposed. There's

 

  5   almost a tradition of that.

 

  6             MR. BARNETT:  I understand.

 

  7             JUDGE LEVI:  But I want to point you to

 

  8   the form of the rule.  You brought up the

 

  9   suggestion in the Second Circuit that the rule not

 

 10   apply retroactively and then I think in your own

 

 11   submission you also have some suggestions on the

 

 12   form of the rule.

 

 13             What would you like the language of the

 

 14   rule to be?

 

 15             MR. BARNETT:  Well, in my statement, which

 

 16   I don't have here, I think it reads any disposition

 

 17   by any federal court may be cited to or by any

 

 18   court, period, in contrast to the committee's

 

 19   present proposal, which is there shall be no

 

 20   restrictions on opinions that are labeled

 

 21   unpublished or not citable or not precedential or

 

 22   whatever.

 

                                                               122

 

  1             JUDGE LEVI:  Do you have a view on whether

 

  2   it should be going forward or--

 

  3             MR. BARNETT:  No, I would agree with

 

  4   making it prospective only.  That's what a number

 

  5   of jurisdictions have done in moving to citability

 

  6   and I think that's perfectly appropriate, to make

 

  7   only decisions issued henceforth citable.

 

  8             JUDGE ALITO:  Judge Ellis?

 

  9             JUDGE ELLIS:  You said the Fourth Circuit

 

 10   was citable.  What is your criticism of that

 

 11   circuit rule?

 

 12             MR. BARNETT:  I have no criticism of any

 

 13   really of the circuit rules that allow citability.

 

 14   They're different.  It might be better to make the

 

 15   uniform but I wouldn't even insist on that.  And I

 

 16   defend--I disagree with Pat Schiltz on this but I

 

 17   defend what I call the discouraging words, the

 

 18   statement that you should only cite an unpublished

 

 19   opinion if there's no published opinion on point,

 

 20   or the statement that citation of unpublished

 

 21   opinions is disfavored.  I think that's all okay.

 

 22             JUDGE ELLIS:  So a dichotomy between

 

                                                               123

 

  1   published and nonpublished is all right provided

 

  2   that the unpublished decisions are fully accessible

 

  3   and citable.

 

  4             MR. BARNETT:  Yes, that's my view, so long

 

  5   as they're citable.  And I would go further,

 

  6   though, in one respect.  The Third Circuit had the

 

  7   last time I looked a practice whereby lawyers may

 

  8   cite the unpublished orders but the court has a

 

  9   tradition of not doing so.  I would not allow that

 

 10   tradition to persist.  I explain in a footnote how

 

 11   I would deal with that.

 

 12             MR. LEVY:  Professor Barnett, just so I'm

 

 13   clear on the next-to-the-last point you made, would

 

 14   you favor the rule that allows citations without

 

 15   restrictions or the rule that favors them with

 

 16   restrictions, or would you favor a nonuniform rule

 

 17   that allows it?

 

 18             MR. BARNETT:  I myself would prefer the

 

 19   rule that allows them only for persuasive value,

 

 20   not for precedential--

 

 21             MR. LEVY:  No, that's not my point.  The

 

 22   rules, like the Eighth Circuit, we got a letter

 

                                                               124

 

  1   from our Chief Judge Hodeen saying the First

 

  2   Circuit recently has adapted the rule and they all

 

  3   say they're not precedential, that they're

 

  4   persuasive only, but some allow them only when

 

  5   there is no public decision on point or kind of a

 

  6   second tier.  Other circuits, like the D.C.

 

  7   Circuit, allow them without restriction.

 

  8             So the question is would you favor a D.C.

 

  9   Circuit-type rule that says you can cite them

 

 10   without regard to anything else or the Eighth

 

 11   Circuit-type rule that says you can cite them but

 

 12   only if, and then certain circumstances?  Or would

 

 13   you allow the circuits to choose between those two

 

 14   so that we don't have a national rule in the end at

 

 15   all?

 

 16             MR. BARNETT:  I would allow the circuits

 

 17   to choose and I myself would prefer the

 

 18   restriction, the persuasive value only, but that's

 

 19   really for political purposes to make a uniform

 

 20   rule more palatable for the various circuits and

 

 21   indeed the various states.  I would expect that

 

 22   over time that would move toward a precedent rule.

 

                                                               125

 

  1             JUDGE ALITO:  Any other questions?

 

  2             Thank you, Professor Barnett.

 

  3             Chief Judge Mayer of the Federal Circuit.

 

  4             Just as a procedural matter I think that

 

  5   we are running quite late and I expect after we

 

  6   hear from Chief Judge Mayer we will take a very

 

  7   short recess and then continue until 12:30.

 

  8             Chief Judge Mayer?

 

  9            STATEMENT OF THE HON. HALDANE ROBERT MAYER

 

 10             JUDGE MAYER:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

 11   Thank you for the opportunity to address the

 

 12   committee on behalf of the United States Court of

 

 13   Appeals for the Federal Circuit.  With me today in

 

 14   case there are questions that I can't answer are my

 

 15   colleagues Judge William C. Bryson, our Circuit

 

 16   Executive and our Clerk of Court, January Horbaly,

 

 17   and our senior members of the Central Legal Office,

 

 18   Melvin Halpern and Ellie Thayer.

 

 19             In a letter dated January 6, 2004 I wrote

 

 20   to the express the unanimous opposition of the

 

 21   judges of the Federal Circuit to three of the

 

 22   proposed amendments to the Federal Rules of

 

                                                               126

 

  1   Appellate Procedure.  I'd like to address in

 

  2   further detail our objections to two of those

 

  3   proposed amendments--the adoption of a proposed

 

  4   Rule 32.1 regarding citation of nonprecedential

 

  5   dispositions and the adoption of proposed Rule

 

  6   35(a) concerning the determination of the majority

 

  7   in en banc cases.

 

  8             The Federal Circuit is similar to its

 

  9   sister courts of appeals in many ways.  You will

 

 10   undoubtedly hear and have heard from

 

 11   representatives of other circuits why the proposed

 

 12   amendment regarding unpublished dispositions or, as

 

 13   we say, nonprecedential opinions, should not be

 

 14   adopted and how such a rule would affect the other

 

 15   circuits.  To the extent possible I'll try not to

 

 16   repeat the objections and concerns of my colleagues

 

 17   and their respective courts, although we share most

 

 18   of them.  Instead, I will focus my remarks today on

 

 19   the unique procedures and decision-making processes

 

 20   of the Federal Circuit and how the proposed rule

 

 21   will adversely affect the judicial process in the

 

 22   way the Federal Circuit decides its cases.

 

                                                               127

 

  1             To focus on why our court objects to

 

  2   proposed Rule 32.1 regarding the citation of

 

  3   nonprecedential dispositions, let me first offer a

 

  4   little background on the Federal Circuit.  Our

 

  5   court was created by statute in 1982. This was

 

  6   longer after the Judicial Conference of the United

 

  7   States, in response to an ever-increasing appellate

 

  8   court caseload, an increasing number of

 

  9   precedential opinions, and the concern for the

 

 10   ability of libraries to maintain the increased

 

 11   materials, requested that the courts of appeals

 

 12   begin issuing unpublished, nonprecedential

 

 13   opinions.

 

 14             In 1964 the Judicial Conference adopted a

 

 15   resolution that requested the courts of appeals to

 

 16   "authorize the publication of only those opinions

 

 17   which are of general precedential value and that

 

 18   opinions authorized to be published be succinct."

 

 19   Thereafter, in 1972 the Judicial Conference

 

 20   requested that all circuits develop a publication

 

 21   plan for opinions.

 

 22             By the date of our court's creation, all

 

                                                               128

 

  1   courts of appeals were issuing both precedential

 

  2   and nonprecedential opinions in response to the

 

  3   Judicial Conference's suggestion.  Thus, in

 

  4   drafting every opinion, our court has had in its

 

  5   collective mind whether that opinion should be

 

  6   issued as precedential or, if the issues raised by

 

  7   the case were not likely to be relevant to the

 

  8   development of the law in general, issued as

 

  9   nonprecedential.

 

 10             In this regard we created our local rule,

 

 11   Federal Circuit Rule 47.6(b), which provides that

 

 12   if a panel wishes a nonprecedential opinion, "Any

 

 13   opinion or order so designated must not be employed

 

 14   or cited as precedent.  This rule does not preclude

 

 15   assertion of claim preclusion, issue preclusion,

 

 16   judicial estoppel, law of the case, or the like

 

 17   based on a decision of the court designated as

 

 18   nonprecedential."

 

 19             We further developed a set of criteria to

 

 20   determine when an opinion should be issued as

 

 21   precedential.  These criteria are published in our

 

 22   Internal Operating Procedures, OP Number 10.  That

 

                                                               129

 

  1   procedure states that the "purpose of a

 

  2   precedential disposition is to inform the bar and

 

  3   interested persons other than the parties.  The

 

  4   parties can be sufficiently informed of the court's

 

  5   reasoning in a nonprecedential opinion."  Our

 

  6   procedure expressly states that disposition by a

 

  7   nonprecedential opinion "does not mean that the

 

  8   case is considered unimportant, but only that a

 

  9   precedential opinion would not add significantly to

 

 10   the body of law or would otherwise fail to meet a

 

 11   criterion" for being precedential.

 

 12             The criteria for issuing an opinion as

 

 13   precedential are, and I'm listing the 14 of them

 

 14   lest it be thought that they are treated cavalierly

 

 15   in our court.  Number one, the test of a test case.

 

 16   Number two, an issue of first impression is

 

 17   treated.  Three, a new rule of law is established.

 

 18   Four, an existing rule of law is criticized,

 

 19   clarified, altered or modified.  Five, an existing

 

 20   rule of law is applied to facts significantly

 

 21   different from those to which that rule has

 

 22   previously been applied.

 

                                                               130

 

  1             Six, an actual or apparent conflict in or

 

  2   with past holdings of this court or other courts is

 

  3   created, resolved or continued.  Seven, a legal

 

  4   issue of substantial public interest which the

 

  5   court has not sufficiently treated recently is

 

  6   resolved.  Eight, a significantly new factual

 

  7   situation likely to be of interest to a wide

 

  8   spectrum of persons other than parties to a case is

 

  9   set forth.  Nine, a new interpretation of a Supreme

 

 10   Court decision or of a statute is set forth.

 

 11             Ten, a new constitutional or statutory

 

 12   issue is treated.  Eleven, a previously overlooked

 

 13   rule of law is treated.  Twelve, procedural errors

 

 14   or errors in the conduct of the judicial process

 

 15   are corrected, whether by remand with instructions

 

 16   or otherwise.  Thirteen, the case has been returned

 

 17   by the United States Supreme Court for disposition

 

 18   by the action of this court other than ministerial

 

 19   obedience to directions of the court.  Fourteen, a

 

 20   panel desires to adopt as precedent in this court

 

 21   an opinion of a lower tribunal in whole or in part.

 

 22             These criteria are applied by a panel of

 

                                                               131

 

  1   three judges each time an opinion is issued.  Is it

 

  2   possible that we might decide that an opinion

 

  3   should be nonprecedential but that members of the

 

  4   bar might disagree, given their perspectives?  Yes,

 

  5   and our rules recognize this possibility, allowing

 

  6   any person to request that an opinion or order be

 

  7   reissued as precedential.

 

  8             The members of the bar who frequently

 

  9   practice before our court peruse our opinions

 

 10   carefully and they keep us on our toes.  Thus we do

 

 11   receive such requests, even from persons that were

 

 12   not parties to the pertinent appeal.  Requests to

 

 13   reissue as precedential are granted when

 

 14   appropriate and, if granted, the panel may choose

 

 15   to revise the language of the earlier opinion to

 

 16   make it more acceptable as a precedential opinion.

 

 17             Thus, we have rules and procedures that we

 

 18   believe best serve our court in its decision-making

 

 19   process.  It has been suggested that the rulemaking

 

 20   authority of the Rules Committee does not permit a

 

 21   rule that directly affects the decision-making

 

 22   processes of the court.  Even assuming such

 

                                                               132

 

  1   authority, which is not altogether clear, the

 

  2   proposed rule should be reconsidered by the

 

  3   committee and it should not be adopted.

 

  4              Turning back to our court's procedures,

 

  5   if the earlier-mentioned criteria are not met, a

 

  6   panel prepares a nonprecedential opinion or enters

 

  7   judgment without opinion.  In the past eight

 

  8   statistical years, from 1996 to 2003, 33 percent of

 

  9   our merits panel cases have issued as precedential

 

 10   opinions, 47 percent have issued as nonprecedential

 

 11   opinions, and 20 percent have issued as judgments

 

 12   without opportunity.

 

 13             It is my understanding that our rate of

 

 14   issuing precedential opinions is well above the

 

 15   national average.  Perhaps because our jurisdiction

 

 16   is limited to discrete areas of the law, we are

 

 17   particularly aware when a case involves an issue

 

 18   that might add something of relevance to the law

 

 19   and we strive to publish those opinions.

 

 20             Nonetheless, nearly half of our opinions

 

 21   are nonprecedential.  They were not prepared with

 

 22   less care with respect to arriving at the proper

 

                                                               133

 

  1   result.  Indeed the panel must follow established

 

  2   precedent.  But they were not written with the

 

  3   extra care or concern for language that would be

 

  4   used if they were to be extended or relied upon by

 

  5   those who were not parties to the case.  In other

 

  6   words, nearly half of our cases were written with

 

  7   one audience in mind--the parties only.

 

  8             Although members of this committee surely

 

  9   understand, some people may not appreciate the

 

 10   different type of writing, editing and procedure

 

 11   that is entailed when preparing a precedential

 

 12   opinion.  It is by all means more time-consuming

 

 13   than the preparation of a nonprecedential opinion.

 

 14             The Federal Circuit may also be unique in

 

 15   some of the procedures that it's adopted in this

 

 16   regard, which I will brief explain.  If an opinion

 

 17   is to be issued as precedential, the authoring

 

 18   judge prepares the opinion and obtains the votes

 

 19   and comments from the other panel members.  This is

 

 20   the same initial procedure that is used in the

 

 21   preparation of a nonprecedential opinion, but that

 

 22   is where the similarities end.  After the panel

 

                                                               134

 

  1   approves the language of a proposed precedential

 

  2   opinion, that opinion is circulated to the other

 

  3   judges and to the court's Central Legal Office.

 

  4   During the period of circulation, nonpanel judges

 

  5   may comment or make suggestions.  Thus, each judge

 

  6   reads each circulated precedential opinion before

 

  7   it is issued.  This is in addition to his or her

 

  8   duties regarding the cases to which that judge is

 

  9   assigned.

 

 10             At any one time, many precedential

 

 11   opinions are circulated.  The Central Legal Office

 

 12   also reviews the circulating opinions and informs

 

 13   the court of any apparent conflicts or confusion

 

 14   with existing precedent or Supreme Court law.

 

 15   Comments from nonpanel judges or the staff may

 

 16   result in changes to the opinion or even a sua

 

 17   sponte poll by the judges to determine whether the

 

 18   case should be heard en banc.   After such comments

 

 19   and considerations are made, the opinion is issued

 

 20   as precedential.

 

 21             This procedure is time-consuming and

 

 22   labor-intensive but well worth the effort.  Thus,

 

                                                               135

 

  1   when our court determines that an opinion adds

 

  2   something to the law, it receives the attention of

 

  3   the full court before the opinion's issuance.

 

  4             In contrast, a nonprecedential opinion is

 

  5   written to inform parties why their arguments were

 

  6   accepted or rejected.  Such opinions refer to the

 

  7   relevant precedent or simply apply the pertinent

 

  8   standard of review.  The aim of more conversational

 

  9   nonprecedential opinions is only to briefly

 

 10   explain.  A nonprecedential opinion is not written

 

 11   to be a pronouncement on the law or to have

 

 12   far-reaching effect.  Before issuance, it is not

 

 13   reviewed by nonpanel judges or by the Central Legal

 

 14   Office.  When written, it is not intended to be

 

 15   considered for any purpose by a future merits panel

 

 16   in a different case.

 

 17             However, under proposed Rule 32.1, these

 

 18   opinions will be cited and, as some comments have

 

 19   suggested, an attorney might have the ethical duty

 

 20   to search for and cite such cases.  The citable

 

 21   body of case law within our circuit would more than

 

 22   double, and in some circuits it might increase

 

                                                               136

 

  1   tenfold.  Appellants and appellees will proceed to

 

  2   argue the value to be ascribed to such

 

  3   nonprecedential opinions, with hen we have already

 

  4   determined that they should have none--that's why

 

  5   we wrote them that way.

 

  6             In all areas of the law our court

 

  7   sees--intellectual property, government contracts,

 

  8   veterans appeals, federal personnel cases,

 

  9   international trade, Indian claims, inverse

 

 10   condemnation, tax appeals, Vaccine Act cases, et

 

 11   cetera--words and word choices are very important.

 

 12   Nonprecedential opinions would be scoured for that

 

 13   unintended turn of phrase.  Now, with the advent of

 

 14   web-based research, an attorney could search for a

 

 15   snippet of language in a nonprecedential opinion

 

 16   and latch ont it.

 

 17             When we write precedential opinions, we

 

 18   craft those snippets, phrases, and holdings in a

 

 19   manner that reflects, limits or expands on the

 

 20   nature of the issue, as appropriate.  When we write

 

 21   nonprecedential opinions, we are merely giving the

 

 22   parties what they sought--an answer to the

 

                                                               137

 

  1   questions raised in their particular case.

 

  2             Another factor that distinguishes our

 

  3   court is that every decision on the merits, whether

 

  4   precedential or nonprecedential, is written in

 

  5   chambers and not by the central legal staff.  Our

 

  6   staff attorneys are primarily concerned with the

 

  7   court's motions practice and providing comments on

 

  8   circulating precedential opinions.

 

  9             We have a great desire to maintain this

 

 10   practice, whereby every litigant knows that a

 

 11   merits decision was reached in chambers and not by

 

 12   the court's legal staff.  But if we must devote

 

 13   more time and effort to fine-tuning the language of

 

 14   nonprecedential opinions because they may be cited

 

 15   by the parties in future cases, then our circuit's

 

 16   practice of having all cases decided in chambers

 

 17   must change.  I would imagine that the proposed

 

 18   rule would have a decided and adverse effect in our

 

 19   court, even to the point of considering personnel

 

 20   changes.

 

 21             The committee notes state, rather

 

 22   unconvincingly, that Rule 32.1 is "extremely

 

                                                               138

 

  1   limited" and would not require changes to the

 

  2   circumstances in which a court may choose to

 

  3   designate an opinion as unpublished, changes to the

 

  4   procedure that a court must use, or changes in

 

  5   effect the court must give to one of its

 

  6   unpublished opinions.

 

  7             In practice, the effects of the rule would

 

  8   not be so limited.  It would change the way we

 

  9   write nonprecedential opinions.  Our mindset would

 

 10   be that, for whatever value, the language used in a

 

 11   nonprecedential opinion would be used by parties to

 

 12   argue for something likely never intended by the

 

 13   opinion.  Perhaps perversely we would issue fewer

 

 14   nonprecedential opinions and more judgments without

 

 15   opinion.  Perhaps, because we would spend more time

 

 16   refining the language in nonprecedential opinions,

 

 17   the time that we have to issue precedential

 

 18   opinions will be more limited.

 

 19             Certainly our workload would increase,

 

 20   both because of the time expended to write

 

 21   nonprecedential opinions and because of the time

 

 22   expended reading and researching previous

 

                                                               139

 

  1   nonprecedential opinions cited by the parties in

 

  2   their briefs.  It is not difficult to foresee,

 

  3   because of the way our circuit circulates and

 

  4   prepares its precedential opinions and because we

 

  5   do not use staff attorneys to prepare opinions,

 

  6   that the increased time it would take to write

 

  7   nonprecedential opinions would detrimentally affect

 

  8   the amount of time it takes to issue our decisions.

 

  9   Decisions would be delayed.  The rule would serve

 

 10   only to add to the cacophony of the law.

 

 11             I also disagree that the proposed rule is

 

 12   "extremely limited" as the committee notes state

 

 13   because the proposed rule not only contradicts our

 

 14   local rule; it is contrary to our case law.

 

 15   Perhaps the committee believes that the restriction

 

 16   against citing nonprecedential opinions exists only

 

 17   in courts' local rules.  This is suggested by the

 

 18   statement in the committee's notes that there is a

 

 19   "hardship" on counsel that practice in more than

 

 20   one circuit because different courts' rules of

 

 21   practice give different weight to or prohibit the

 

 22   citation to nonprecedential opinions.

 

                                                               140

 

  1             I find it hard to believe that learned

 

  2   counsel would be confused by easily ascertainable

 

  3   rules or standards.  Indeed, if counsel has the

 

  4   wherewithal to locate a nonprecedential opinion

 

  5   that he believes addresses an issue not covered by

 

  6   any precedential opinion, that attorney should have

 

  7   the ability to find a local rule or read the

 

  8   heading on the nonprecedential opinion that

 

  9   explains its nonprecedential status.

 

 10             In any event, it is not just the local

 

 11   rule that governs the relevance of or weight that

 

 12   we give to nonprecedential opinions.  As our court

 

 13   explained in Hamilton v. Brown, a 1994 case,

 

 14   "Nonprecedential opinions and orders are not

 

 15   citable to this court, they do not represent the

 

 16   considered view of the Federal Circuit regarding

 

 17   aspects of a particular case beyond the decision

 

 18   itself, and they are not intended to convey this

 

 19   court's view of law applicable in other cases.

 

 20   Nonprecedential orders and opinions are used in

 

 21   summary dispositions of cases in which a full

 

 22   precedential opinion is not considered necessary,

 

                                                               141

 

  1   but something more than a one-sentence affirmance

 

  2   is warranted or needed.

 

  3             "They are nonprecedential for a

 

  4   reason--while the decision itself receives due

 

  5   care, as do all cases before us, the explanation

 

  6   given in the summary disposition does not

 

  7   necessarily contain a full recitation of all the

 

  8   relevant facts and legal authorities.  The opinion

 

  9   or order is primarily for the benefit of the

 

 10   parties.  It is error to assume that a

 

 11   nonprecedential order or opinion provides support

 

 12   for a particular proposition or reflects a new or

 

 13   changed view held by this court."

 

 14             Before I turn to the rule regarding en

 

 15   banc voting, I would like to respond directly to a

 

 16   committee comment in its notes and a similar

 

 17   comment submitted by a bar association about a

 

 18   specific Federal Circuit case.

 

 19             First, the notes of the committee state

 

 20   that even nonprecedential opinions can be reviewed

 

 21   by the Supreme Court, noting that in 2002 the

 

 22   Supreme Court reviewed our nonprecedential decision

 

                                                               142

 

  1   in Holmes Group, Incorporated v. Vornado Air

 

  2   Circulation Systems, Incorporated.  It is true that

 

  3   our decision--actually in that case it was not an

 

  4   opinion; it was a short order--was issued as

 

  5   nonprecedential.

 

  6             However, the Supreme Court's review was

 

  7   directed to a jurisdictional issue that had been

 

  8   decided in an earlier en banc case.  In Holmes we

 

  9   did not even address the issue that the Supreme

 

 10   Court was reviewing.  Holmes itself was not

 

 11   ground-breaking law.  The jurisdictional issue was

 

 12   so longstanding in our jurisprudence that we didn't

 

 13   address it in our nonprecedential order, which

 

 14   instead simply remanded the case to the district

 

 15   court to consider intervening Supreme Court case

 

 16   law on the merits.

 

 17             Even under the proposed rule, no party

 

 18   would have cited the nonprecedential order to us

 

 19   concerning the issue of jurisdiction because our

 

 20   nonprecedential order didn't even address the

 

 21   issue.  It is strange for the committee to use that

 

 22   case as an example of a case that warranted Supreme

 

                                                               143

 

  1   Court review although issued as nonprecedential.

 

  2   It does not to any degree support the notion that

 

  3   the case should have been citable for the issue on

 

  4   which the Supreme Court granted review.  But the

 

  5   committee's notes themselves show the kind of

 

  6   mischief that this proposal can lead to.

 

  7             According to the summary prepared by the

 

  8   committee's reporter, some comments argue that

 

  9   local rules prohibiting citation to nonprecedential

 

 10   opinions suggests that "wealthy parties represented

 

 11   by big law firms" receive "high-quality justice"

 

 12   because their cases are resolved by published

 

 13   decisions but that "no-name appellants represented

 

 14   by no-name attorneys" receive "low-quality justice"

 

 15   involving only a quick review of their briefs, no

 

 16   oral argument, and an unpublished decision.

 

 17             This is simply not the case in the Federal

 

 18   Circuit.  The Federal Circuit holds oral argument

 

 19   in every counseled case, whether the parties are

 

 20   represented by a big firm or a small one.  In pro

 

 21   se cases a party may move for oral argument.

 

 22   Whether we choose to make an opinion precedential

 

                                                               144

 

  1   has nothing to do with whether the parties are

 

  2   represented by big or small firms or even whether

 

  3   the appellant is pro se.

 

  4             Indeed, a large number of our cases

 

  5   involve federal employees who are seeking review of

 

  6   Merit Systems Protection Board decisions or

 

  7   veterans who are seeking review of decisions of the

 

  8   Court of Appeals for Veterans Claims.  Many of the

 

  9   appellants or petitioners in those cases proceed

 

 10   pro se.  Necessarily, our precedential cases

 

 11   include the cases, counseled or not, that raise

 

 12   issues of importance to the development of the law.

 

 13             It may be that in some cases a

 

 14   well-seasoned attorney can find and raise an issue

 

 15   that would not be raised by a less talented

 

 16   attorney or by a pro se litigation, but again we

 

 17   don't choose to make it precedential because of the

 

 18   identity of the attorney or client.  It is

 

 19   precedential because the issue should be addressed

 

 20   and because it adds to the law.

 

 21             Another comment that I would like to

 

 22   address, submitted by the Association of the Bar of

 

                                                               145

 

  1   the City of New York, argues in support of the

 

  2   proposed rule that "there are many unpublished

 

  3   opinions that address cases of first impression, or

 

  4   are of constitutional dimension."  This cite as an

 

  5   example our November 1999 nonprecedential opinion

 

  6   in O'Connell v. Secretary of Health and Human

 

  7   Services.  That comment states that a dissenting

 

  8   judge in that case argues that a sectoin of the

 

  9   Vaccine Act violates the Presentment Clause of the

 

 10   Constitution, suggesting that the opinion should

 

 11   not have been nonprecedential because it concerned

 

 12   such a momentous issue.

 

 13             The Bar Association's citation of that

 

 14   nonprecedential opinion is a perfect example of why

 

 15   the proposed rule is ill-advised and how the rule

 

 16   will be abused by litigants.  It does not appear

 

 17   that the authors of the comment read our decision,

 

 18   in which it is expressly stated that the

 

 19   constitutional issue was addressed in a

 

 20   precedential opinion, Terran v. Secretary of Health

 

 21   and Human Services, also a 1999 case.  The

 

 22   O'Connell dissenting judge merely states that, as

 

                                                               146

 

  1   he stated in his dissent in the Terran case, he

 

  2   would hold the section of the Vaccine Act to be

 

  3   unconstitutional.  There is nothing new in that

 

  4   nonprecedential opinion that was not addressed

 

  5   fully by the court in the precedential Terran

 

  6   opinion.  Learned counsel would have cited the

 

  7   precedential opinion.

 

  8             We have fewer but no less important

 

  9   objections to the proposed change to Rule 35(a)

 

 10   concerning determinations of a majority in en banc

 

 11   cases.  We are not convinced that this is a rule

 

 12   that needs to be uniform among the circuits.  Each

 

 13   court is different.  What possible concern can it

 

 14   be to the parties how we vote in comparison to how,

 

 15   say, the Fourth Circuit votes?

 

 16             In the Federal Circuit we presently have

 

 17   12 active judges.  Under our current and

 

 18   longstanding local ruler we require the votes of a

 

 19   majority, in this case seven, of the active judges

 

 20   to take a case en banc.  Often en banc cases are in

 

 21   the area of patent law, government contracts and

 

 22   some others that due to the complex issues raised

 

                                                               147

 

  1   in those cases, call for en banc disposition.

 

  2   Those cases often involved major corporations or

 

  3   even multiple corporate entities, thus increasing

 

  4   the possibility that judges may be recused from

 

  5   voting on an en banc petition.

 

  6             Nonetheless, we believe it is important

 

  7   that a decision to take a case en banc require the

 

  8   assent of a majority of the active judges.  In this

 

  9   way, every en banc cases carries the same weight,

 

 10   in our view.  If the proposed rule were in effect,

 

 11   the votes of four judges, only one more than a

 

 12   regular panel, could grant en banc review and

 

 13   indeed, decide a controversial issue binding the

 

 14   whole court.

 

 15             In fact, in my letter I noted that in a

 

 16   recent case five judges were recused, leaving only

 

 17   seven voting members.  If four of those seven, a

 

 18   majority, granted en banc review, and the same

 

 19   number of judges signed onto the en banc opinion,

 

 20   the court could be bound by what in other

 

 21   circumstances is considered a minority view.

 

 22             If a majority of the recused judges

 

                                                               148

 

  1   disagreed with the outcome of that en banc

 

  2   decision, their only recourse would be to force

 

  3   another en banc in a later case in which fewer

 

  4   judges were recused.  In that situation the initial

 

  5   en banc would not provide the permanent resolution

 

  6   of the issue that is the justification for holding

 

  7   an en banc proceeding and the court and counsel

 

  8   would have been put to the considerable expense and

 

  9   trouble of two en bancs where one would have

 

 10   sufficed or even where an en banc review would not

 

 11   have been necessary in the first place.

 

 12             The committee states that the need for

 

 13   national uniformity is the rationale for the

 

 14   proposed en banc rule, citing 28 U.S.Code Section

 

 15   2073, which requires that the Standing Committee on

 

 16   Rules recommend to the Judicial Conference rules

 

 17   that are "necessary to maintain consistency and

 

 18   otherwise promote the interest of justice."

 

 19             The committee notes that the circuits are

 

 20   split, that both of the primary approaches to

 

 21   determining en banc status are "reasonable

 

 22   interpretations," and then decides to follow the

 

                                                               149

 

  1   approach of a minority of the circuits.  This, in

 

  2   our view, is representative of our objection to the

 

  3   proposed rule.  A recognized minority view is

 

  4   imposed on the whole.

 

  5             With this proposed rule I must again raise

 

  6   my concern that the committee may be overstepping

 

  7   its authority here when it attempts to tell the

 

  8   courts how to interpret a statute, 28 U.S. Code

 

  9   Section 46(c).  That matter, going to a statutory

 

 10   interpretation, could be decided by a court of

 

 11   appeals or the Supreme Court in case law.  The

 

 12   committee should not, under the guise of

 

 13   consistency, attempt to intervene in the circuits'

 

 14   disagreement concerning the interpretation of a

 

 15   statutory provision.

 

 16             In closing, the judges of the Federal

 

 17   Circuit do not believe that the proposed rules

 

 18   concerning citation of nonprecedential opinions or

 

 19   the determination of an en banc majority should be

 

 20   adopted.  The proposed rules are ill-advised.  They

 

 21   are not in the best interest of the administration

 

 22   of justice in the Federal Circuit.  They do not

 

                                                               150

 

  1   involve areas in which consistency is necessary.

 

  2   The reason that the circuits vary on these issues

 

  3   is in great part due to their history and because

 

  4   of the determinations made by the judges regarding

 

  5   what works best for each circuit.  Consistency

 

  6   should not be sued to erase the historical

 

  7   development of the law and procedures of the

 

  8   individual circuits.

 

  9             Mark Twain once said, "I am persuaded that

 

 10   the world has been tricked into adopting some false

 

 11   and most pernicious notion about consistency--and

 

 12   to such a degree that the average man has turned

 

 13   the rights and wrongs of things entirely around and

 

 14   is proud to be 'consistent,' unchanging, immovable,

 

 15   fossilized, where it should be his humiliation."  I

 

 16   cannot think of a better way to end.  Thank you for

 

 17   your attention and I'm sorry for reading so fast

 

 18   but I know it's been a long morning and I wanted to

 

 19   get through it.

 

 20             JUDGE ALITO:  We appreciate that.

 

 21             May I ask a question about Rule 35(a)?

 

 22   Congress provided in 28 U.S.C. Section 46(c) that

 

                                                               151

 

  1   rehearing en banc may be ordered by "a majority of

 

  2   the circuit judges who are in regular active

 

  3   service."  Now must that not mean the same thing

 

  4   everywhere in the country?  How can it be argued

 

  5   that this concept of a majority of circuit judges

 

  6   who are in regular active service can mean one

 

  7   thing in one circuit and one thing in another

 

  8   circuit?  It's a unitary statutory standard.

 

  9             JUDGE MAYER:  It is.  It's a statute that

 

 10   is subject to interpretation and our court has

 

 11   interpreted it to mean the majority of the active

 

 12   judges, not the majority of the active judges who

 

 13   are not recused.  So if we have 12 judges that has

 

 14   to be seven. That's how we have interpreted it.  In

 

 15   our view it seems like the interpretation that

 

 16   should prevail but apparently it doesn't.

 

 17             JUDGE ALITO:  If we were to recommend that

 

 18   as the uniform national standard would you have an

 

 19   objection to that?

 

 20             JUDGE MAYER:  Ours?

 

 21             JUDGE ALITO:  Yes.

 

 22             JUDGE MAYER:  I have an objection--well, I

 

                                                               152

 

  1   don't want to get in too deep on this topic

 

  2   because, as I said, it's something that could very

 

  3   well be a matter in litigation.  I would say that

 

  4   the prudent thing to do is not to have a rule, that

 

  5   this committee should withdraw the proposal and

 

  6   leave it alone.  If it becomes important enough to

 

  7   somebody someday--I can't imagine why it would--it

 

  8   could be a matter in litigation that could be

 

  9   decided by the circuit or the court.

 

 10             JUDGE ALITO:  I can give you an example of

 

 11   why it could become important and this was when the

 

 12   rule first struck me.  I know your court does not

 

 13   have death penalty cases but we do and many of the

 

 14   other circuits do.  When we had the absolute

 

 15   majority rule in our circuit we had a case in which

 

 16   rehearing en banc was denied under the absolute

 

 17   majority rule, even though a majority of the judges

 

 18   who were not recused voted in favor of rehearing

 

 19   the decision affirming the denial of a habeas

 

 20   petition by a capital defendant.

 

 21             It just struck me, although I was not one

 

 22   of the judges who voted for rehearing in the case,

 

                                                               153

 

  1   it just struck me that the outcome of a case like

 

  2   that should not depend on whether this individual

 

  3   was prosecuted in the Third Circuit as opposed to

 

  4   some other circuit that had the case majority rule.

 

  5             Now in a case like that where it is the

 

  6   outcome of the particular case that is so critical,

 

  7   doesn't that argue very strongly in favor of

 

  8   national uniformity?

 

  9             JUDGE MAYER:  Well, when you start talking

 

 10   about death penalty, and it is true that we don't

 

 11   have death penalty cases, that makes it sound more

 

 12   severe, but my view is that the interpretation that

 

 13   we've adopted is correct.  It could be, as I say,

 

 14   challenged in litigation some other time.

 

 15             My point is the rulemaking procedure is

 

 16   not the way to take care of this.  There's a

 

 17   statute out there and the Rules Committee and the

 

 18   Judicial Conference are not empowered, in my view,

 

 19   to make these interpretations.

 

 20             MR. McGOUGH:  Judge Mayer, it's always

 

 21   dangerous, I think, to try to compartmentalize or

 

 22   group like with like and this is going back to the

 

                                                               154

 

  1   citation rule.  But using Professor Barnett's

 

  2   paradigm or his groupings, he seems to say there

 

  3   are nine circuits that allow citation of some form

 

  4   or another and four that don't.  And the four that

 

  5   he identifies are the Second, the Seventh, the

 

  6   Ninth and the Federal Circuit.

 

  7             There's a difference, though, that I see

 

  8   in the rules between, on the one hand, the Second

 

  9   Circuit and the Ninth Circuit and the rules, on the

 

 10   other hand, of the Seventh Circuit and your

 

 11   circuit.  Second Circuit and the Ninth Circuit, at

 

 12   least the edited versions I've seen seem to say you

 

 13   may not cite them, period, nonprecedential

 

 14   opinions.

 

 15             JUDGE MAYER:  That's right.

 

 16             MR. McGOUGH:  The Seventh Circuit and your

 

 17   circuit seem to say you may not cite them as

 

 18   precedent, which it seems to me is maybe far closer

 

 19   to the circuits that say these aren't precedent but

 

 20   you can cite them for persuasive value.

 

 21             JUDGE MAYER:  Well, you may be confusing

 

 22   our court with the D.C. Circuit, maybe.  I don't

 

                                                               155

 

  1   know.  Our court says you may not cite

 

  2   nonprecedential opinions and indeed, you might get

 

  3   sanctioned if you do.  The only time you can cite

 

  4   them, and I've read the rule here, is if it's res

 

  5   judicata or collateral estoppel or something and

 

  6   that would usually arise in the same transaction,

 

  7   anyway.  It's another court you're referring to,

 

  8   not ours.

 

  9             MR. McGOUGH:  Well, I was just looking at

 

 10   Rule 47.6(b), which I think is cited, as well, in

 

 11   your letter to the court.  Maybe not.  At least the

 

 12   footnote in Professor Mayer's article seemed to say

 

 13   that an opinion order designated not to be cited as

 

 14   precedent must not be employed or cited as

 

 15   precedent, which seems sort of circular.

 

 16             MR. LETTER:  In your letter that's quoted.

 

 17   It says may not be cited as precedent, it says.

 

 18             MR. McGOUGH:  Which seems to be wholly

 

 19   circular and doesn't move your circuit that far

 

 20   from the circuits that say these things aren't

 

 21   precedent but may be cited for persuasive value.

 

 22             My question is this.  Do you see cases

 

                                                               156

 

  1   cited for persuasive value, nonprecedential

 

  2   opinions cited in your court for persuasive value,

 

  3   as opposed to for their precedential value?

 

  4             JUDGE MAYER:  No, unless they've made a

 

  5   mistake, and they're called on it frequently.  It

 

  6   doesn't happen very often but most of the time

 

  7   they'll be called on it in the course of oral

 

  8   argument.  But you can use it for precedential

 

  9   value if it's a collateral estoppel--

 

 10             MR. McGOUGH:  I understand the exceptions

 

 11   but you also quoted a case which seemed much more

 

 12   absolute in its language, that said may not be

 

 13   cited, essentially, period.

 

 14             JUDGE MAYER:  Right.

 

 15             MR. McGOUGH:  I practice in the Third

 

 16   Circuit mostly.  I have an occasional matter in the

 

 17   Federal Circuit.  I could find the rule that says,

 

 18   and I'm very likely to find the rule that says may

 

 19   not be cited as precedent.  I'm unlikely to find a

 

 20   rule or the case that says may not be cited,

 

 21   period.

 

 22             And I wonder if it wouldn't be confusing

 

                                                               157

 

  1   to someone in my position to think I could say in

 

  2   my brief I recognize that this is not precedent but

 

  3   this is a nice turn of phrase or an interesting way

 

  4   of looking at the problem.  I'm not citing it as

 

  5   precedent but I find it persuasive and the court

 

  6   may find it persuasive.  It seems to me I would not

 

  7   be in violation of the rule but I might be in

 

  8   violation of this case.

 

  9             JUDGE MAYER:  Well, I believe you would be

 

 10   in violation of the rule, as well, if it's being

 

 11   read that way.  Maybe our use of the language is a

 

 12   little looser than it should haven been.  But as a

 

 13   matter of practice I think it's very rarely that

 

 14   people make the mistake of citing a nonprecedential

 

 15   opinion because they understand what it is.

 

 16             I think the solution to that problem, if

 

 17   it is one, would be for our rules committee to take

 

 18   a look at it and to adjust it, send it out to our

 

 19   advisory council for public comment and so forth,

 

 20   because that is how we do it and there really

 

 21   hasn't been a problem with it over the years.

 

 22             MR. LETTER:  Chief Judge Mayer, I very

 

                                                               158

 

  1   much welcome the assistance of you and your

 

  2   colleague, my friend Judge Bryson, on trying to

 

  3   understand this and I have a question for you.

 

  4   Before I ask the question I have two observations.

 

  5             One, on the uniformity point, remember

 

  6   this committee has no authority whatsoever.  All we

 

  7   do is--

 

  8             JUDGE MAYER:  Mr. Chairman, would you mind

 

  9   if Judge Bryson joined me?

 

 10             JUDGE ALITO:  No, not at all.

 

 11             MR. LETTER:  Can I object?

 

 12             MR. LEVY:  This is your chance to ask him

 

 13   a question.

 

 14             MR. LETTER:  Remember that this committee

 

 15   does nothing other than make recommendations.  The

 

 16   Supreme Court is the one that would actually set

 

 17   any rule.  So, for instance, on the en banc, if it

 

 18   decides to do that it would be the Supreme Court

 

 19   that would do that after it having sat before

 

 20   Congress.  So all we do is make recommendations to

 

 21   the Supreme Court.

 

 22             And second, I think Judge Wood, who I

 

                                                               159

 

  1   think has left, made the same point, I had to say a

 

  2   little derisively, saying look, if you lawyers can

 

  3   find cases, you can find our rules.  Of course, I

 

  4   can find your rules but I practice in every single

 

  5   circuit.  I practice in a lot of district courts.

 

  6   And it seems to me saying I can find your rules is

 

  7   justification for your saying in the Federal

 

  8   Circuit opening briefs will be orange, whereas in

 

  9   the Seventh Circuit they'll blue or the Ninth

 

 10   Circuit they'll be green, et cetera.  So I think

 

 11   there is massive value in uniformity, even if I can

 

 12   find your rules.

 

 13             The question that I'm really hoping that

 

 14   you and Judge Bryson can help on is one that I'm

 

 15   struggling with.  From talking with practitioners

 

 16   and judges in the circuits that allow free

 

 17   citation, my very strong impression is this is a

 

 18   nonproblem, that the cases are very rarely cited.

 

 19   I disagree with my fellow Boalt alum, Sandy, that

 

 20   this suddenly massively increases the job of the

 

 21   lawyers doing research.

 

 22             So it really doesn't seem to be a massive

 

                                                               160

 

  1   burden on the attorneys.  When I do a case in the

 

  2   Federal Circuit or the D.C. Circuit, I don't work

 

  3   on them any differently.  I research them the exact

 

  4   same, even though you have completely different

 

  5   rules about citation.

 

  6             So what is it that you view as a serious

 

  7   problem to pick up on what Tom McGough was saying,

 

  8   if all I do is say to you here's an interesting law

 

  9   review article--here's your precedent, judges, your

 

 10   published precedent, but by the way, here's a law

 

 11   review article that I think is interesting, here's

 

 12   a district court opinion that you might find

 

 13   useful, and here's a nonprecedential unpublished

 

 14   opinion that was issued by your court a year and a

 

 15   half ago?

 

 16             I know it's not precedent.  I know it's

 

 17   not binding on you.  You know it's not.  So what is

 

 18   the problem with me pointing that out to you, as

 

 19   well as pointing out the law review article, the

 

 20   clever Shakespearian quote I toss in, et cetera?

 

 21   Why does that trouble, since all you need to do is

 

 22   say that's not precedent, it's not binding on us,

 

                                                               161

 

  1   just like the law review article, just like the

 

  2   Ninth  Circuit opinion, the D.C. Circuit opinion?

 

  3   What am I missing?  What's the problem that's

 

  4   caused for you by my putting that citation in the

 

  5   brief?

 

  6             JUDGE MAYER:  Let me just start.  First of

 

  7   all, your first point about treating this matter as

 

  8   the same as what color the brief covers should be,

 

  9   that is a purely ministerial topic.  I see no

 

 10   problem with that.

 

 11             This goes to the heart of the judicial

 

 12   process and I believe it's questionable that the

 

 13   rulemaking process, whether it's the Supreme Court

 

 14   or anybody else, the rulemaking process can dictate

 

 15   it.

 

 16             Now I did explain and I read it fast, I

 

 17   know, at some length as to the process we use,

 

 18   anyway, and of course I talked limited to our court

 

 19   now and other courts are coming in with their own

 

 20   perspectives, and we prepare these things entirely

 

 21   differently.  You're going to be citing it in the

 

 22   hopes that we're going to sign onto it.  I mean

 

                                                               162

 

  1   it's not true that people are asking for permission

 

  2   to cite something to be ignored.

 

  3             And the final point, you said what's the

 

  4   difference between our case and Shakespeare.  Well,

 

  5   we know that Shakespeare is not legal, is not case

 

  6   law in our circuit.

 

  7             MR. LETTER:  If I cite a D.C. Circuit

 

  8   opinion to you, you know that's not--I know that's

 

  9   not binding on you and you know that's not binding

 

 10   on you.  You read it for interest to decide whether

 

 11   you want to go in conflict with it or go the same

 

 12   with it.  I assume pay close attention to it.

 

 13   Again why is it okay for me to cite it?  Does it

 

 14   not cause you problems for me to cite a D.C.

 

 15   Circuit opinion to you but I can't tell you about

 

 16   something that your court did, again knowing I know

 

 17   full well that it's not binding on you?  You know

 

 18   that and I know that, just like the D.C. Circuit

 

 19   opinion is not binding on you.

 

 20             JUDGE BRYSON:  Well, it's not binding but

 

 21   I think we're specifically advised that we are to

 

 22   pay very close attention to other circuit opinions

 

                                                               163

 

  1   that may be in conflict with a position that are

 

  2   inclined to take.  I think that's actually

 

  3   established law.

 

  4             What troubles me about this is perhaps

 

  5   illustrated by this distinction that has come up a

 

  6   couple of times, I think, between persuasive value

 

  7   and precedent.  I don't really see that there's a

 

  8   difference between persuasive value and precedent

 

  9   in the sense that when you're talking about

 

 10   opinions.  Opinions, that's the nature of

 

 11   precedent, that they have persuasive value.  Either

 

 12   they bind you or they strongly indicate where you

 

 13   should go.

 

 14             And what worries me about beginning to

 

 15   cite nonprecedential opinions for their persuasive

 

 16   value or other purposes is that you get this kind

 

 17   of creeping precedentialism.  You get this notion

 

 18   that this is precedent that's perhaps not entitled

 

 19   to the same degree of attention but it's entitled

 

 20   to some degree of attention because it has

 

 21   persuasive value, and that is going to have, I

 

 22   think, down the line perhaps not cataclysmic

 

                                                               164

 

  1   consequences but it will have the marginal effect,

 

  2   increasing I'm concerned over time, of forcing us

 

  3   to feel that we have to be more attentive to

 

  4   precisely what we say, how we say it, as the Chief

 

  5   Judge was saying, in our "nonprecedential

 

  6   opinions," which becomes these kinds of

 

  7   quasi-precedents.

 

  8             The other concern that I have is, and this

 

  9   is peculiar perhaps in many respects to our court,

 

 10   but there are areas of our practice, and I think

 

 11   the chief judge mentioned, for example, the

 

 12   typically pro se federal employee cases, a pretty

 

 13   substantial chunk of our cases, typically not

 

 14   briefed very well, either on the appellants' side,

 

 15   the federal employees pro se, or candidly and with

 

 16   apologies to the Department of Justice--

 

 17             MR. LETTER:  You're not going to say that,

 

 18   are you?

 

 19             JUDGE BRYSON:  Let me say charitably that

 

 20   sometimes the Department of Justice doesn't feel

 

 21   challenged as much as they do in other cases and

 

 22   sometimes we don't get the kinds of thorough and

 

                                                               165

 

  1   careful briefing that we do in other counseled

 

  2   cases in that area.

 

  3             Our concern is that it's much easier in

 

  4   those kinds of cases than in the case in which

 

  5   counsel are on both sides of the case and when the

 

  6   case is vigorously disputed, it's much easier for

 

  7   us to miss things because the counsel don't call

 

  8   them to our attention, for us to have opinions that

 

  9   just flat out miss things that are out there.  And

 

 10   if we have to confront those cases and deal with

 

 11   them, even as persuasive authority, it, I think,

 

 12   makes our task a lot harder.

 

 13             It does happen that we have cases when an

 

 14   issue will ultimately arise in the federal employee

 

 15   area when an issue just hasn't been previously

 

 16   briefed, that it's been in the case but it hasn't

 

 17   really been presented well enough to call itself to

 

 18   our attention, and that's a concern.

 

 19             JUDGE STEWART:  To follow up on Doug's

 

 20   question, because I'm trying to understand the

 

 21   argument, as well, and I opposed the question to

 

 22   Judge Wood because it strikes me that much of the

 

                                                               166

 

  1   opposition and viewpoints really are merging the

 

  2   noncitation and the precedential issues, which one

 

  3   could argue are two separate questions very

 

  4   adroitly avoided by the proposed rule, but it seems

 

  5   in the eyes of many they are read and Judge Wood

 

  6   acknowledged that she viewed those as intertwined.

 

  7             So trying to understand your answer

 

  8   collectively to Doug's question, I'm trying to

 

  9   understand because we get cited to district court

 

 10   opinions all the time on matters which obviously

 

 11   aren't binding to me as a circuit judge but the

 

 12   cognitive processes just don't find it difficult to

 

 13   discern it in that plane--you know, read it as

 

 14   persuasive, dismiss it or something.  But it just

 

 15   seems collectively in some of the answers that

 

 16   because it's a circuit unpublished opinion, somehow

 

 17   the demarcation of what you described as creeping

 

 18   "precedentialism," which I thought was an

 

 19   interesting term, is that really the core of the

 

 20   opposition, this foot in the door kind of notion of

 

 21   creeping precedentialism?  Not these other issues

 

 22   of parade of horribles about all the workload.

 

                                                               167

 

  1             People can differ about those and there

 

  2   isn't any evidence on the table about on that but

 

  3   is the core of it really the question of to the

 

  4   extent you have to look at it, it therefore may

 

  5   become binding in sort of a jail with no bars

 

  6   notion?  Is that really the core because if so,

 

  7   perhaps that's a powerful argument not to.  All

 

  8   these other arguments, the way they're labeled,

 

  9   that seems to be a theme in a lot of instances that

 

 10   yes, the rule is proposed as nonprecedential but

 

 11   really at the core of it is it's the first step

 

 12   toward should all circuits publish all opinions for

 

 13   precedential value?  Is that the way I should be

 

 14   understanding the opposition?

 

 15             JUDGE BRYSON:  No.  Just for myself and I

 

 16   think there are a variety of different views as to

 

 17   the potential mischief among the opponents of the

 

 18   rule, but I think for myself and I think I speak in

 

 19   this respect for a number of others, I think that

 

 20   is the real concern.  And it's not just the foot in

 

 21   the door as such, although it's interesting that

 

 22   many of the proponents of the rule see it as

 

                                                               168

 

  1   ultimately leading to what is the most favored

 

  2   consequence, which is to have all opinions

 

  3   precedential.

 

  4             But setting that aside for a moment

 

  5   because that's not what this rule would do, at

 

  6   least not in its present form, I do think that

 

  7   there's a problem that if you say you may cite this

 

  8   and people cite it, well, why are they citing it?

 

  9   They're citing it because they want you to follow

 

 10   it.  They want you to do pretty much the same thing

 

 11   as you did in this case that they have found.

 

 12             Now you may not be "bound" to do it but

 

 13   the whole purpose of the exercise of putting that

 

 14   citation in is to try to push you in the direction

 

 15   of doing what was done in that case, which is what

 

 16   I mean when I say creeping precedentialism.  It's

 

 17   that you are asking a court to give some weight to

 

 18   something that that court feels very uncomfortable

 

 19   giving weight to and either one of two things is

 

 20   going to happen.  Either you will break the promise

 

 21   implicit in the citation rule by saying we aren't

 

 22   going to pay any attention to this and to heck with

 

                                                               169

 

  1   the Appellate Rules Committee; we're just going to

 

  2   allow you to cite it but we will never, never pay

 

  3   attention to it, or you will end up giving it up

 

  4   weight, which is contrary to what we think the

 

  5   right approach to nonprecedential--

 

  6             JUDGE STEWART:  Short follow-up.  But why

 

  7   is that repugnant?  Why is that repugnant, though?

 

  8   Yes, when they cite the district court opinion to

 

  9   me from the Southern District of New York or an

 

 10   area in which we have no law.  Well, I'm not

 

 11   offended as a circuit judge that some district

 

 12   court judge doing the real work in the trenches has

 

 13   confronted this problem--we have no law on it--as

 

 14   part of the calculus of me deciding how to come out

 

 15   on this case.

 

 16             So I just can't quite follow the notion

 

 17   that because another panel in an unpublished

 

 18   opinion approached this and came out bare facts as

 

 19   outlined, but as at as one piece of 1,000 pieces in

 

 20   the calculus of decision-making, why is that

 

 21   repugnant to the decision-making process because

 

 22   it's a circuit opinion versus Shakespeare or

 

                                                               170

 

  1   something else that's cited as persuasive?  As

 

  2   judges I'm sure you do; we ignore, don't read,

 

  3   reject a whole warehouse of information that's put

 

  4   forth, and I'm totally separating out the pro se

 

  5   issues because those are issues unto themselves but

 

  6   even from lawyers.

 

  7             So I guess the bottom line is why is it

 

  8   more difficult to ignore, don't follow, don't read,

 

  9   et cetera, that opinion cited, more so than it is

 

 10   for me to ignore the Southern District of New York

 

 11   district judge's opinion?  I guess simplified, why

 

 12   is that more difficult or is it qualitatively so

 

 13   that as a member of this committee I really ought

 

 14   to put more weight on that perhaps than some other

 

 15   points?

 

 16             JUDGE MAYER:  Well, we know that the

 

 17   Southern District of New York opinions or any

 

 18   district court opinion is not binding precedent.

 

 19   It's not binding precedent on the district court

 

 20   itself.  They could decide issue, if it thought

 

 21   better, it could decide the issue the opposite way.

 

 22   But in our case we have applied our precedent.

 

                                                               171

 

  1             I mentioned in the hearing this cacophony

 

  2   of the law.  We have in our court anyway, discrete

 

  3   areas of jurisdiction.  We have a multitude of

 

  4   cases interpreting, and it's mostly statutory,

 

  5   statutory provisions.  What we then see is multiple

 

  6   cases coming along with slightly different fact

 

  7   patterns that we feel is redundant and not helpful

 

  8   to be throwing out there for lawyers to try to look

 

  9   for some nuance, some word choice that some overly

 

 10   ambitious judge wrote to try to sound a little bit

 

 11   different from the other opinion when he didn't

 

 12   mean it to be different.

 

 13             So we're basically just saying now here's

 

 14   the principle and we've decided that in a number of

 

 15   cases you win or you lose for that reason.

 

 16             The other thing is, you know, you're going

 

 17   to have a lot of these nonprecedential opinions

 

 18   that have no development.  They have no factual

 

 19   development.  They're very thin, very thinly

 

 20   argued.  They're going to be cited to us for the

 

 21   nice language that's in there.  I think that it

 

 22   would be incumbent upon counsel, if they're going

 

                                                               172

 

  1   to use nice language, to go out and find out first

 

  2   whether the fact pattern of that case has anything

 

  3   to do with what we're deciding in the case that

 

  4   it's being cited for.  If not, then I think you

 

  5   should be concerned about sanctionable conduct to

 

  6   be citing things as judicial precedent or citable

 

  7   precedent, persuasive precedent, for something that

 

  8   has absolutely nothing to do with our case.

 

  9             JUDGE BRYSON:  If I could just add--I

 

 10   agree with that but if I could just add two quick

 

 11   points in perhaps partial response.

 

 12             One is as has been said before and I think

 

 13   there's truth to this, if you say that these things

 

 14   can be cited, just internally I know what effect it

 

 15   will have on me personally, which is I'm going to

 

 16   spend more time on the nonprecedential opinions.

 

 17   There's a limited amount of time available to us

 

 18   and you know, as do all of the appellate judges, we

 

 19   are pretty hard pressed and it's going to come out

 

 20   of somebody else's hide.  The question is an

 

 21   allocation of resources.  Do you want it to come

 

 22   out of the hide of the precedential opinions?  Do

 

                                                               173

 

  1   you want it to come out of the hide of preparation

 

  2   for oral argument, and so forth?  That's the first

 

  3   point.  It's just a natural human response to this

 

  4   will be to be more cautious about the

 

  5   nonprecedential and that translates into time.

 

  6             The other factor is one that's been

 

  7   mentioned here a little bit and I think perhaps not

 

  8   enough.  That is and I think even some of the

 

  9   proponents of the rule and the proponents of an

 

 10   even broader rule of having all opinions fully

 

 11   citable and fully entitled to precedential weight,

 

 12   is that the way we could deal with the time problem

 

 13   is simply to have more judgment orders, those

 

 14   wonderful one-line orders that just say "Affirmed,"

 

 15   in our case "See Rule 36."

 

 16             Now I didn't like those when I was

 

 17   practicing.  At least I liked them when they were

 

 18   in my favor.  I didn't like them when they came out

 

 19   against me.  I don't think any lawyer who's out

 

 20   there who gets a nonprecedential judgment order

 

 21   would prefer that to getting a nonprecedential

 

 22   opinion that explains the reasons why the lawyer

 

                                                               174

 

  1   lost, gives the lawyer a basis on which, for

 

  2   example, to petition for cert if there's a cert

 

  3   issue in there.

 

  4             I think it's a good thing that we have

 

  5   nonprecedential opinions, as opposed to judgment

 

  6   orders.  It forces us to confront the questions in

 

  7   the case and just do what the opinion-writing

 

  8   process is partly intended to do, which is to force

 

  9   us to actually confront the questions in a writing

 

 10   format that sometimes leads us to draw different

 

 11   conclusions about the case.  That just doesn't

 

 12   happen in a nonprecedential order.

 

 13             MR. LETTER:  Judge Bryson, just one

 

 14   follow-up from that.  Don't you already have that

 

 15   concern, though, because your decision, your

 

 16   nonprecedential unpublished decisions are already

 

 17   citable in 90 something percent of the federal

 

 18   courts in the United States because the district

 

 19   courts, I think either none or almost none have

 

 20   rules against citing unpublished court of appeals

 

 21   opinions.  And my colleagues who practice in the

 

 22   district courts routinely cite unpublished court of

 

                                                               175

 

  1   appeals opinions and the district judges routinely

 

  2   refer to them.

 

  3             So one, you already should know that your

 

  4   unpublished opinions are picked up, cited and

 

  5   relied on.  And second, I inadvertently discovered

 

  6   the other day a Ninth Circuit opinion that cites

 

  7   approvingly on the merits, not for res judicata or

 

  8   anything, an unpublished Second Circuit opinion.

 

  9   So here we have two circuits with rules against

 

 10   publication and yet the Ninth Circuit actually

 

 11   cited this unpublished Second Circuit opinion,

 

 12   which again shows me that if you were, as you sit

 

 13   and work on those unpublished opinions, you have to

 

 14   understand that in almost every federal court in

 

 15   the United States those are citable.

 

 16             So don't you already have the problem?  In

 

 17   other words, it's only in about four courts that

 

 18   they're not citable.  And, as we know, they're

 

 19   citable in the Supreme Court.  There are five cases

 

 20   this term involving unpublished court of appeals

 

 21   decisions.  So your words in your unpublished

 

 22   decision may end up in the Supreme Court, too.

 

                                                               176

 

  1             JUDGE BRYSON:  Well, I think it's a matter

 

  2   of degree.  It would be a bigger factor if it were

 

  3   in the briefs that we see than in the briefs that

 

  4   the District of Nevada court sees.

 

  5             MR. LEVY:  I wanted to follow up on a

 

  6   comment of Judge Bryson a moment ago.  Your court

 

  7   may be different and that's really the question I'm

 

  8   asking, but the judges around the country have been

 

  9   very candida and it's been quite revealing to hear

 

 10   their own descriptions of their unpublished

 

 11   nonprecedential decisions.  We hear, for example,

 

 12   that the judges don't really write those opinions.

 

 13   They're done by staff attorneys.  They agree

 

 14   perhaps only on the bottom line and don't agree

 

 15   with what the staff attorneys have put down on

 

 16   paper.

 

 17             I wonder how much good it really does the

 

 18   parties or the lawyers in the cases with these

 

 19   nonprecedential opinions to be given what purport

 

 20   to be reasons of the court that from what we've

 

 21   been told in many instances are not reasons of the

 

 22   court.

 

                                                               177

 

  1             JUDGE BRYSON:  Well, as Chief Judge Mayer

 

  2   mentioned, we don't have the practice of having

 

  3   opinions drafted by staff counsel.  All of our

 

  4   opinions, precedential and nonprecedential, are

 

  5   written in chambers.  I've got a nonprecedential

 

  6   opinion right here I'm working on.

 

  7             JUDGE MAYER:  That's because I told him he

 

  8   wouldn't have to say anything or do anything, just

 

  9   listen.

 

 10             JUDGE BRYSON:  But it is part of our

 

 11   culture, and again the culture varies from court to

 

 12   court; for instance, I think one of the reasons

 

 13   that I think this sort of procrustean uniformity

 

 14   principle doesn't really apply here or shouldn't.

 

 15             But yes, our practice is for the judges to

 

 16   exercise the same kind of supervisory role with

 

 17   respect to the preparation of opinions whether

 

 18   they're nonprecedential or precedential, which may

 

 19   mean that for us, there's somewhat less of a

 

 20   difference in the amount of judicial time spent on

 

 21   them but I can tell you there's still some and if

 

 22   we narrow the gap in the amount of time, the

 

                                                               178

 

  1   investment of effort that goes into the

 

  2   nonprecedentials, since there are so many of them,

 

  3   you just increase the expenditure of time and I

 

  4   think, on balance--this is where we ultimately come

 

  5   down--on balance, the game is not worth the candle.

 

  6             JUDGE ROBERTS:  I agree with Judge

 

  7   Stewart.  I think there is a need to keep separate

 

  8   precedential, nonprecedential and the citability

 

  9   issues.  I guess the best way to do that is to ask

 

 10   have either of you ever looked at nonprecedential

 

 11   opinions in the course of preparing for argument or

 

 12   preparing for a decision or preparing an opinion?

 

 13             In other words, if your law clerk in to

 

 14   you and says, "Your Eminence, I have found an

 

 15   unpublished opinion from our court two months ago

 

 16   that is on the exact same question; it really helps

 

 17   resolve the case.  Here, look at it."  I mean do

 

 18   you say no; I know that not as much care went into

 

 19   that as an opinion?  I know that that's not binding

 

 20   precedent; I don't want to see it?

 

 21             I assume the answer is no, that you look

 

 22   at it and you give it whatever worth or value you

 

                                                               179

 

  1   think it deserves, appreciating that you're not

 

  2   bound by it.

 

  3             So my question is if you actually do look

 

  4   at these things, why won't you let the lawyers tell

 

  5   you about them?

 

  6             JUDGE MAYER:  I don't know that the answer

 

  7   is yes.  I don't recall anyone bringing them in to

 

  8   me but that's because we know that they're

 

  9   nonprecedential and we don't want to fool with

 

 10   them.  But we did look at them in the case that was

 

 11   written about in some of this material, the Symbol

 

 12   Tech case, which was the question of whether

 

 13   nonprecedential opinions are unconstitutional and I

 

 14   wrote the opinion and I ignored prior

 

 15   nonprecedential opinions, didn't even mention them

 

 16   in the opinion and my colleague in dissent felt

 

 17   compelled to go into it which, of course, is the

 

 18   fear.  And, of course, our court as a whole did not

 

 19   join that dissenting view or raise the question.

 

 20   Our process was followed and the case came out but

 

 21   that matters what might or might not happen.

 

 22             I personally don't think that I'm not

 

                                                               180

 

  1   going to look at them because I know what we

 

  2   intended by them and if some of my colleagues

 

  3   didn't see it otherwise, I guess I can't help it,

 

  4   but it wouldn't be healthy.

 

  5             JUDGE BRYSON:  My own experience is that

 

  6   I've looked at them but no more than a handful and

 

  7   I think not even a very full hand.  One of them was

 

  8   one that I had written, which went the other way

 

  9   from the way that I thought was clearly pointed and

 

 10   all I could say to my law clerk when he presented

 

 11   this to me was, "What was I thinking?"  And, of

 

 12   course, I blamed it on the lawyers for not having

 

 13   briefed the case adequately.

 

 14             But it isn't something we regularly do,

 

 15   partly because of the nature of our jurisprudence.

 

 16   A lot of these cases are either in the employee

 

 17   area where the issues just weren't raised or in the

 

 18   plain construction area in patent cases where each

 

 19   case is really sui generis.  These are like

 

 20   contract construction issues and each patent is

 

 21   different, so you just are not likely to have very

 

 22   similar issues arising and they just don't come up.

 

                                                               181

 

  1             JUDGE ALITO:  Thank you very much.  We

 

  2   appreciate your comments.

 

  3             I'm going to have to depart from what I

 

  4   said earlier.  I had promised Chief Judge Walker of

 

  5   the Second Circuit that he could testify at 10:30.

 

  6   We're well past that now and he has to leave, so

 

  7   I'd like to take him out of order now.

 

  8            STATEMENT OF THE HON. JOHN M. WALKER, JR.

 

  9             JUDGE WALKER:  Thank you very much, Mr.

 

 10   Chairman.  I want to thank the committee for

 

 11   permitting me to speak in opposition to the rule,

 

 12   proposed Rule 32.1.  As has been pointed out, 18

 

 13   other judges on my court join in this position.

 

 14             The focus of this brief statement is going

 

 15   to be to highlight the major problems that are, I

 

 16   think, posed by this effort to impose what I

 

 17   believe is a one-size-fits-all rule on appellate

 

 18   courts and in particular, the way the rule will

 

 19   affect the Second Circuit.  Let me just give you a

 

 20   little bit of background as far as we're concerned.

 

 21             Pro se appeals constitute about 40 percent

 

 22   of the Second Circuit's docket and insubstantial

 

                                                               182

 

  1   sentencing and immigration appeals comprise a

 

  2   significant portion of the balance.  The great

 

  3   majority of these cases are disposed of by what we

 

  4   call summary orders, which are usually a page or

 

  5   two, that provide the litigant with a concise

 

  6   outline of the panel's reasoning in support of the

 

  7   disposition.

 

  8             Permitting citation of summary orders, we

 

  9   think, promises to add considerable extra work for

 

 10   judges and lawyers with very limited, if any,

 

 11   benefit to the adjudicatory process.

 

 12             First of all, I just want to say that I do

 

 13   believe that it's not appropriate for the Rules

 

 14   Committee to establish this kind of uniform rule in

 

 15   this way.  Each circuit has historically been given

 

 16   autonomy in determining how best to conduct its own

 

 17   business and to allocate its scarce resources.  And

 

 18   this autonomy, I think, is exemplified by the

 

 19   various no-citation rules promulgated by each

 

 20   circuit that are out there now and also that were

 

 21   done in response to the Judicial Conference's

 

 22   exhortation in the late 1960s and early 1970s to

 

                                                               183

 

  1   devise such rules in order to curtail the

 

  2   burgeoning body of case law being created as a

 

  3   result of rapidly expanding caseloads.  This

 

  4   mandatory rule would directly, I think, interfere

 

  5   with this autonomy.

 

  6             While there may be satisfactory reasons to

 

  7   encourage the circuits to revisit their rules in

 

  8   light of technical innovations and the ready

 

  9   availability now of unpublished decisions to

 

 10   litigants, as several circuits have done, the

 

 11   matter really should be left to the discretion of

 

 12   each circuit court.

 

 13             And in any event, I firmly believe that

 

 14   the Judicial Conference should not go beyond

 

 15   requesting courts to consider changes to their

 

 16   internal practices, just as the conference did in

 

 17   1965 and 1973 going the other way.  A request for

 

 18   consideration is very different from a mandatory

 

 19   rule and it preserves local court autonomy in

 

 20   dealing with these questions.  And I can assure you

 

 21   that we would approach any such request, if it came

 

 22   to that, with a completely open mind.  We're

 

                                                               184

 

  1   mindful of the changed dynamics that may be out

 

  2   there now, particularly with the fact that they're

 

  3   all published on line.

 

  4             In any event, even if there is some merit

 

  5   to the contention that citation should be allowed,

 

  6   and it's a view that I disagree with, the impact of

 

  7   adopting this rule will be different in each

 

  8   circuit and I think that therefore each circuit

 

  9   ought to be allowed to make its own determination.

 

 10             Also I believe that the rulemaking process

 

 11   really, if you look at the statutes, and I'm

 

 12   talking about the rule's enabling acts and

 

 13   specifically in Title 28, U.S. 2071 through 2077,

 

 14   you'll see that those rules, the rules' enabling

 

 15   acts, generally apply to rules that do not dictate

 

 16   changes to the substance and legal import of

 

 17   courts' decisions and determine how a court will

 

 18   manage its caseload.  Rule 2077, Section 2077 makes

 

 19   clear that there really is no role in those

 

 20   circumstances to be played by the Judicial

 

 21   Conference or any of its committees in promulgating

 

 22   a circuit court's rules for the conduct of its

 

                                                               185

 

  1   business.

 

  2             Now the fact that several circuits have

 

  3   allowed citation to unpublished decisions, with or

 

  4   without restrictions as to their use, in my view

 

  5   does not justify the uniform national rule.  Each

 

  6   circuit does have different workloads.  Judge Wood

 

  7   pointed this out.  We have different workloads,

 

  8   different compositions of its caseloads, the types

 

  9   of cases that it has, and different cultures,

 

 10   different relationships with its communities.

 

 11   Therefore I think even where no-citation rules may

 

 12   be identical, when they're abandoned they will have

 

 13   different impacts on the conduct of the court's

 

 14   business in different circuits.

 

 15             This rule, I think, will impose

 

 16   substantial burdens on the courts.  The proponents

 

 17   have argued that there really is no increased

 

 18   burden on the courts because the courts can devise

 

 19   internal rules, can manage it, manage the problem.

 

 20   I think that this argument, which focusses

 

 21   primarily on the difficulties that a court may

 

 22   encounter when litigants cite unpublished opinions

 

                                                               186

 

  1   to them, is wrong for two reasons.

 

  2             First, as the Advisory Committee itself

 

  3   acknowledges, the reason that unpublished opinions

 

  4   will be cited is for their persuasive value.  A

 

  5   future panel confronted with an argument that

 

  6   relies on an unpublished opinion is placed in the

 

  7   difficult position of determining and explaining

 

  8   whether the unpublished opinion is persuasive,

 

  9   whether it was intended to be persuasive by the

 

 10   issuing panel.

 

 11             Now this may necessitate additional work,

 

 12   the additional work of searching out and reviewing

 

 13   briefs and other materials related to the

 

 14   unpublished opinion, but that burden, in my view,

 

 15   will pale in significance to the burden on the

 

 16   panel that is drafting these orders, summary

 

 17   orders, in the first place.  That burden stems from

 

 18   the necessity of trying to forecast how the

 

 19   disposition could be interpreted by a future panel

 

 20   to which it's cited.  And I don't think the

 

 21   committee and the comments that I've seen have

 

 22   really focussed on this aspect of it enough.

 

                                                               187

 

  1             In the Second Circuit, summary orders, our

 

  2   summary orders typically provide concisely reasoned

 

  3   explanations for the court's decision but they do

 

  4   spare much of the factual and procedural

 

  5   elaboration that would be necessary to permit

 

  6   application of the decision to other cases.  As a

 

  7   result, they take, on average, a matter of hours to

 

  8   prepare whereas signed published opinions, which

 

  9   are scrutinized for their effect in future cases,

 

 10   usually take weeks, sometimes just days but usually

 

 11   weeks and in some cases, major cases, obviously

 

 12   longer.  They also involve extensive work by three

 

 13   chambers, as opposed to the summary orders.

 

 14             So the efficiencies that are garnered in

 

 15   preparing summary orders, I think will be lost if

 

 16   they become susceptible to citation in future

 

 17   cases.  The authoring judge will no longer be

 

 18   assured that shorthand statements of fact and law,

 

 19   clearly understood by the parties and relevant to

 

 20   their consideration--they're the only constituents

 

 21   there--will not later be scrutinized for their

 

 22   legal significance by a panel not privy to the

 

                                                               188

 

  1   specifics of that case.

 

  2             And second, the argument that the courts

 

  3   will be able to modify the way they prepare

 

  4   unpublished dispositions to accommodate the rule I

 

  5   think rests on unrealistic assumptions that there

 

  6   is homogeneity among the judges in a given circuit

 

  7   and that is plainly not the case.  Judges who are

 

  8   drafting these rules will approach them

 

  9   differently.

 

 10             We just heard from one judge who stated

 

 11   that if they're citable, he's going to spend a lot

 

 12   more time working on them and make them proper

 

 13   vehicles for conveying the law of the circuit.

 

 14   Other judges will not take that view.  Other judges

 

 15   will resort to one-line dispositions, particularly

 

 16   in the face of increasing caseloads, such as we

 

 17   have in the Second Circuit, where our caseload has

 

 18   been going up steadily and is now at about 6,000

 

 19   cases a year.  And still other judges will change

 

 20   nothing to what they do presently.

 

 21             I think there's no compelling reason for

 

 22   permitting citations that justifies implementing

 

                                                               189

 

  1   this kind of a sea change, at least in the culture

 

  2   of the Second Circuit and in the Second Circuit.

 

  3   The argument that lawyers are going to be

 

  4   inconvenienced by having to pick through

 

  5   conflicting no-citation rules of the circuits I

 

  6   think is a red herring.  Lawyers have to do this

 

  7   kind of thing anyway with respect to the local

 

  8   rules and every self-respecting lawyer examines the

 

  9   local rules before appearing or filing a brief.

 

 10   Certainly that's a minor inconvenience that cannot

 

 11   justify, in my view, forcing courts to make such a

 

 12   pronounced change in the way they conduct their

 

 13   business.

 

 14             And I don't think there can be a serious

 

 15   contention that there's a dearth of case law out

 

 16   there for lawyers to review in preparing their

 

 17   cases.  The expectations of the Judicial Conference

 

 18   back in the early '70s have been more than

 

 19   realized.  We're now in the third Federal Reporter

 

 20   series at Volume 360.  It's taken us about 10 years

 

 21   to get there.  When the second series was published

 

 22   it took about 42 years to get to Volume 360.

 

                                                               190

 

  1             Now while it's true that lawyers will no

 

  2   longer be plagued with the herculean task of

 

  3   picking through the conflicting no-citation rules,

 

  4   they will be able to impose, I think, increased

 

  5   litigation costs on their clients by picking

 

  6   through the greatly expanded base of citable

 

  7   opinions and examining the relevant ones with

 

  8   greater care in preparing briefs.

 

  9             The proponents that assert that lawyers

 

 10   are unlikely to feel compelled to search

 

 11   unpublished decisions for cases that support their

 

 12   positions, particularly if they've found one that

 

 13   supports their position, have ignored the fact that

 

 14   lawyers will nevertheless have to, I think, waste

 

 15   valuable time researching and devoting briefs in

 

 16   responding to unpublished decisions that contradict

 

 17   their position, in anticipation that such decisions

 

 18   will be cited by their adversaries or even the

 

 19   court.

 

 20             Now from our perspective, the perspective

 

 21   of the Second Circuit, the consequences of the

 

 22   rule, I think, will disserve the appellate process

 

                                                               191

 

  1   and will hurt litigants.  If, in response to this

 

  2   rule, judges spend more time elaborating

 

  3   unpublished decisions, the entire appellate process

 

  4   will be delayed.  It will be delayed in preparing

 

  5   these summary orders, in the detail and the work

 

  6   that will have to go into them because we know that

 

  7   they will be cited.  It'll also delay obviously the

 

  8   fully published signed opinions that are normally

 

  9   issued because, as has been pointed out, judges

 

 10   have a finite amount of time within which to work.

 

 11             In my court where about two-thirds, maybe

 

 12   more now, of the cases are decided by summary

 

 13   order, our disposition rate will be delayed

 

 14   significantly, I think, to the detriment of the

 

 15   litigants and the bar.

 

 16             Moreover, because the bulk of our caseload

 

 17   comprises pro se appeals, unsupported essentially,

 

 18   broadly stated, that are often unsupported by any

 

 19   legal basis, and rather routine sentencing and

 

 20   immigration appeals, the considerable amount of

 

 21   extra work that is imposed on judges and lawyers

 

 22   will result in few, if any, valuable additions to

 

                                                               192

 

  1   citable case law while, I think, generating a glut

 

  2   of redundant and insignificant decisions to be

 

  3   waded through for possible nuggets of value.

 

  4             In addition, as two federal defenders in

 

  5   New York have pointed out, Barry Leiwant and

 

  6   Leonard Joy, who, by the way, strongly oppose this

 

  7   proposed rule, the rule could reinstate many of the

 

  8   inequities that prompted some no-citation rules in

 

  9   the first place and that have been ameliorated by

 

 10   the advent of Westlaw and Lexis and their

 

 11   publication.  Large firms and government offices

 

 12   will be able to devote their considerable resources

 

 13   to ferreting out briefs and other court materials

 

 14   pertaining to sparse unpublished decisions in order

 

 15   to provide greater context and thereby bolster

 

 16   their persuasiveness.

 

 17             They won't just cite the summary order;

 

 18   they'll cite the summary order and then they'll

 

 19   cite the briefs and they'll cite the surrounding

 

 20   context in order to make their argument.  These

 

 21   litigants will have a distinct and unfair advantage

 

 22   over litigants with fewer resources and in

 

                                                               193

 

  1   particular, the many indigent litigants that file

 

  2   actions against government entities.

 

  3             And finally, where many proponents have

 

  4   argued that citability will result in greater

 

  5   transparency in appellate proceedings, the exact

 

  6   opposite is more likely in the Second Circuit where

 

  7   faced with the choice of either providing

 

  8   sufficiently detailed explanations of its decisions

 

  9   to prevent distorted applications in future cases,

 

 10   the court will either do that or will issue on-word

 

 11   dispositions and more panels in our court, with

 

 12   rising caseloads, I think will go that route out of

 

 13   sheer necessity.

 

 14             Thus, if that's the case, the most

 

 15   poignant hardship that will result from Rule 32.1

 

 16   is that it will deprive litigants, many litigants,

 

 17   primarily the most vulnerable, of the explanation

 

 18   for the court's disposition and with it, the

 

 19   assurance that the court understood and actually

 

 20   reckoned with the contentions that were raised on

 

 21   appeal.  Thus, whether the rule forces us to issue

 

 22   longer, more elaborate unpublished decisions with

 

                                                               194

 

  1   consequent delay and misallocation of judicial

 

  2   resources, or to do away with giving explanations

 

  3   altogether, leaving parties bewildered and

 

  4   short-changed, the appellate process will be the

 

  5   worse for it.

 

  6             So in conclusion, I ask the committee to

 

  7   reject proposed Rule 32.1 and to adhere to the

 

  8   principle of local autonomy in matters affecting

 

  9   how a court conducts its own business.  Thank you.

 

 10             JUDGE ALITO:  Thank you.

 

 11             Questions?

 

 12             If I could just ask you briefly

 

 13   essentially the same question I asked Judge Wood,

 

 14   would you see any value in a study about what

 

 15   effect the elimination of no-citation rules has had

 

 16   in the circuits that have eliminated no-citation

 

 17   rules or never had them?  Do you think that that

 

 18   might cause your court to reconsider its position

 

 19   on this?

 

 20             JUDGE WALKER:  I can see no harm in a

 

 21   study and if the committee adopts in principle

 

 22   local autonomy and exhortation as opposed to

 

                                                               195

 

  1   command decisions, I can assure you that we would

 

  2   examine the study carefully to revisit the

 

  3   question.  I'm not saying how we would come out but

 

  4   we have an open mind on this subject and I would

 

  5   hope that if such a study were done and it was done

 

  6   carefully and persuasively, that then I see no

 

  7   reason why our court wouldn't look at it very

 

  8   seriously.  But we would, in the last analysis,

 

  9   like to be able to make that decision ourselves.

 

 10             MR. LETTER:  Judge Walker, just one

 

 11   question.  Given that there are clearly widely

 

 12   varying and strong views on this, wouldn't it make

 

 13   sense for us as a committee--and your answer may be

 

 14   no but I'm phrasing it--wouldn't it make sense for

 

 15   us as a committee to send this up the line so that

 

 16   frankly the Supreme Court is the one who makes the

 

 17   decision, rather than us?  Because it may very well

 

 18   be that many of us agree with you on local option

 

 19   but nevertheless understand that many disagree.

 

 20             So again shouldn't this be passed up so

 

 21   that this,since this is so controversial and

 

 22   apparently difficult, shouldn't the Supreme Court

 

                                                               196

 

  1   make that decision rather than this committee?

 

  2             JUDGE WALKER:  This is really how you want

 

  3   to conduct your business and how you see your role.

 

  4   I'm not in a position to really advise you on that.

 

  5   I mean it would seem to me that your

 

  6   recommendation, if it's going to have merit, should

 

  7   be what you honestly and sincerely think the rule

 

  8   ought to be, not some situation that other people

 

  9   can throw stones at if it's not an honestly held

 

 10   position on your part.

 

 11             I would expect this committee to vote its

 

 12   conscience and to reach a decision that they

 

 13   believe in, as if they had the final

 

 14   decision-making authority.  It's your best

 

 15   recommendation and you've been tasked with this job

 

 16   as experts in this area.

 

 17             MR. LETTER:  But if we recommend against,

 

 18   it doesn't go to the Supreme Court.  I think the

 

 19   way the system is set up, it doesn't go to the

 

 20   Supreme Court, so even if the Supreme Court

 

 21   disagreed with us, it would never get to them.  The

 

 22   only way, as I understand it, that it would get to

 

                                                               197

 

  1   them is if we passed it along, maybe saying there's

 

  2   significant disagreement here and that's why we

 

  3   think the Supreme Court, you ought to decide it.

 

  4             JUDGE WALKER:  That's a course you could

 

  5   take.  Another course you could take would be if a

 

  6   majority of you felt that the rule was worthwhile

 

  7   or the idea anyway of citing unpublished opinions

 

  8   was worthwhile, that you would propose a rule, as

 

  9   was done in the late '60s and early '70s, strongly

 

 10   encouraging courts to consider this and in light of

 

 11   the fact that it's a practice in other circuits,

 

 12   although not a uniform one, and although with

 

 13   restrictions.  And under those circumstances it

 

 14   seems to me every court would be mindful of that

 

 15   and would also not be as bipolarized, if you will,

 

 16   on this issue.

 

 17             If your thinking was that this would make

 

 18   sense, then why not just encourage courts?  That's

 

 19   something also that I think just flatly as a member

 

 20   of the Judicial Conference would be viewed very

 

 21   differently by the Judicial Conference than a

 

 22   mandatory rule, which is, in my view, intruding

 

                                                               198

 

  1   into the way courts conduct their own business and

 

  2   how they manage their own unique caseloads.

 

  3             JUDGE ALITO:  Judge Levi?

 

  4             JUDGE LEVI:  I recall that your rule is

 

  5   one of the stricter ones.

 

  6             JUDGE WALKER:  It is.

 

  7             JUDGE LEVI:  My question is this.  One

 

  8   reason that attorneys want to cite unpublished

 

  9   opinions, as I understand it, isn't only for

 

 10   persuasive value but as a fact.  This is the way a

 

 11   rule is being applied.  This is where a rule is

 

 12   being applied.  This is a fact piece of evidence

 

 13   that might be argued in a qualified immunity case

 

 14   as to whether law is clearly established or not.

 

 15             Would your rule permit a lawyer to argue

 

 16   not that you should follow these cases but that

 

 17   these cases are there and therefore certain

 

 18   inferences could be drawn in the current case?  For

 

 19   example, if I want to say to the panel we need a

 

 20   clearer rule in this area because look what's

 

 21   happening in some of these unpublished opinions,

 

 22   I'm not relying on them for authority but simply as

 

                                                               199

 

  1   facts.  Can I do that?

 

  2             JUDGE WALKER:  That issue has not come up.

 

  3   My court has not ruled on that particular question.

 

  4   We do permit it, obviously, for any case-related

 

  5   determination--res judicata, collateral estoppel,

 

  6   law of the case, that kind of thing.  And as far as

 

  7   drawing a distinction between persuasive and fact,

 

  8   I think that if they were to--given the ingenuity

 

  9   of the New York bar, they'd start citing these

 

 10   things for their factual value and not for their

 

 11   persuasiveness and we'd be in the same situation

 

 12   we're opposed to.

 

 13             JUDGE ALITO:  Any other questions?

 

 14             Thank you very much, Judge Walker.  We

 

 15   apologize for the delay.

 

 16             JUDGE WALKER:  Not at all.

 

 17             JUDGE ALITO:  We'll hear from Carter G.

 

 18   Phillips of Sidley Austin Brown & Wood.

 

 19                 STATEMENT OF CARTER G. PHILLIPS

 

 20             MR. PHILLIPS:  I appreciate the

 

 21   committee's indulgence.  I've promised to be very

 

 22   brief, in large part because most of the

 

                                                               200

 

  1   observations that I would make as chairman of the

 

  2   Advisory Council of the United States Court of

 

  3   Appeals for the Federal Circuit have already been

 

  4   made by the two judges who have ably expressed

 

  5   their viewpoints in opposition to Rule 32.1.

 

  6             I think I would just like to say two

 

  7   things.  One, the Advisory Council is comprised of

 

  8   lawyers, both government and nongovernment, large

 

  9   firms, small firms.  We were asked to develop a

 

 10   position if the council was in agreement about what

 

 11   position to take with respect to Rule 32.1.  I was

 

 12   quite stunned, frankly, by the unanimity in

 

 13   opposition to it and I think it's a testament,

 

 14   frankly, to the way the Federal Circuit basically

 

 15   decides cases and the general consensus that it's a

 

 16   process that, on whole, seems to be quite fair and

 

 17   that any significant departure from that process

 

 18   would be one that would be of grave concern to

 

 19   practicing lawyers, which leads me to the only two

 

 20   points I really want to make, which is what will

 

 21   the effect of the rule be for those of us who

 

 22   practice before a court like the Federal Circuit?

 

                                                               201

 

  1             I think you have to take Judge Bryson's

 

  2   assessment here at face value and I believe it's

 

  3   two.  One of two things will happen.  Either more

 

  4   time will be devoted to nonprecedential opinions,

 

  5   which will, I don't think detract from the time

 

  6   that's devoted to precedential opinions because all

 

  7   judges place far too much significance on the work

 

  8   product that they put out under their own name.  So

 

  9   the only way that it can make a difference is the

 

 10   way Judge Walker described, which is that it will

 

 11   delay the outcome of these cases.

 

 12             And I can tell you as a practicing lawyer

 

 13   in a lot of courts of appeals who has a lot of

 

 14   clients, there is nothing more frustrating and more

 

 15   difficult to explain away than delay.  Now

 

 16   fortunately in my own practice, most of it's in the

 

 17   United States Supreme Court and the one thing in

 

 18   know to a moral certainty is when we get to the end

 

 19   of June of a term we're going to get all the

 

 20   opinions that that court has to hand out.

 

 21             That's not true with the courts of

 

 22   appeals, obviously, and there are lots of cases

 

                                                               202

 

  1   that stay pending for a long time.  They get lots

 

  2   of phone calls to lawyers from their clients about

 

  3   what's going on when the second, third, fourth,

 

  4   fifth month goes on.  And to the extent that any

 

  5   change in the rules is going to delay this process

 

  6   any greater, I think it's a profound mistake.

 

  7             The flip side is the only way then to

 

  8   avoid greater delay, it seems to me, is going to be

 

  9   the issuance of the one-word orders and that is

 

 10   even more difficult to explain away to a client.

 

 11             Now blissfully in my own practice, most of

 

 12   my clients have issues that if they come to me and

 

 13   ask for an appeal, it usually is the kind of thing

 

 14   that will, in fact, generate an opinion, but we do

 

 15   an awful lot of pro bono work for individuals in a

 

 16   lot of different circumstances and a lot of those

 

 17   cases do not involve significant issues and there's

 

 18   nothing that a practitioner appreciates more than

 

 19   even a two- or three-page explication of what the

 

 20   panel was thinking about because then you can go

 

 21   back to that individual and explain that the

 

 22   process worked, that this assessment of the

 

                                                               203

 

  1   situation is a legitimate one.

 

  2             When you get a one-word affirmance then

 

  3   it's very difficult to explain that the system, in

 

  4   fact, worked, so to the extent that you adopt a

 

  5   rule that's going to increase the instances in

 

  6   which courts of appeals are likely to follow that

 

  7   process, I would urge you strongly not to do so in

 

  8   the absence of clear and compelling reasons to

 

  9   adopt a uniform rule.  And at least from my

 

 10   perspective, I haven't seen reason to adopt a

 

 11   uniform rule.

 

 12             Those are the only two points I wanted to

 

 13   make.  I don't want to indulge any more delay in

 

 14   this process.

 

 15             JUDGE ALITO:  Any questions?

 

 16             JUDGE ROBERTS:  Mr. Phillips, I assume you

 

 17   do what I used to do when you get a one-word order,

 

 18   which is tell your client there's no way they could

 

 19   have written an opinion that would have come out

 

 20   against us.

 

 21             MR. PHILLIPS:  I assume your clients

 

 22   reacted the same way mine do, with some

 

                                                               204

 

  1   incredulity.

 

  2             JUDGE ROBERTS:  Don't you, though--I don't

 

  3   know what the right word is but if you're in the

 

  4   situation where you think for whatever evocative

 

  5   value it has that you want to cite an unpublished

 

  6   opinion to a court that doesn't allow it, I mean it

 

  7   may be any number of reasons--it is the most recent

 

  8   articulation of the rule; it is a panel that is

 

  9   identical to the panel that you're appearing

 

 10   before; there's a particular factual nuance that is

 

 11   identical.  In other words, not that it's binding

 

 12   precedent but you think it will help you convince

 

 13   the judges to come out your way.

 

 14             So how do you reconcile the noncitation

 

 15   rule with your professional judgment about how to

 

 16   present your client's case?

 

 17             MR. PHILLIPS:  Judge Roberts, maybe you've

 

 18   had a vastly different experience than what I've

 

 19   had in my 23 years of appellate practice, but I can

 

 20   literally count on one hand the number of instances

 

 21   in which I really felt as if a nonbinding,

 

 22   nonprecedential order of some sort would make any

 

                                                               205

 

  1   material difference under any circumstances.  And

 

  2   if you compare that with what I--I don't want to be

 

  3   demeaning about it but the truth is there is a vast

 

  4   wasteland of unpublished material out there and to

 

  5   compare the two, it seems to me, it's much easier

 

  6   to say I'd rather be in a position where I don't

 

  7   have to worry about culling through all of those

 

  8   materials, or more relevant today, I don't have to

 

  9   send out all of the assocaites in the office to go

 

 10   chase down all of those things through the methods

 

 11   of Lexis and Westlaw and computer research.

 

 12             So on balance, it seems to me it's not

 

 13   much of a problem at all.

 

 14             MR. LETTER:  Carter, I did want to focus,

 

 15   since you and I have worked both with and against

 

 16   each other on various Supreme Court matters, isn't

 

 17   the fact that the  Supreme Court has this term at

 

 18   least five cases involving unpublished opinions,

 

 19   doesn't that really change things?  Because I

 

 20   wonder how many judges now are saying to themselves

 

 21   it's okay to either pay not much attention to these

 

 22   or let staff counsel write them.  No problem.  They

 

                                                               206

 

  1   can't be cited here.  They can be cited in all the

 

  2   district courts in the United States and I don't

 

  3   really care that an opinion with my name on it,

 

  4   along with two other judges, might get to the

 

  5   Supreme Court.

 

  6             I mean I just wonder about given this what

 

  7   I thought was quite surprising fact that so many of

 

  8   these cases can end up in the Supreme Court,

 

  9   whether that changes things.

 

 10             MR. PHILLIPS:  Well, I don't know the

 

 11   specifics of all of these cases.  I do know that

 

 12   the example that Chief Judge Mayer identified was

 

 13   the one that I've sort of seen in my own practice,

 

 14   which is a rule has become so settled that there's

 

 15   no reason to publish it but the rule nevertheless

 

 16   either conflicts with the rule in another court or

 

 17   frankly it's just wrong, or at least at some stage

 

 18   it gets to the point where you say there's no

 

 19   reason to allow that issue to percolate any

 

 20   further.

 

 21             In that situation it seems to me it's

 

 22   irrelevant.  That is the best use of not publishing

 

                                                               207

 

  1   because all you're doing is announcing a principle

 

  2   that's already out there.  It just tells you what

 

  3   the circuit's law is.

 

  4             Indeed there are a lot of cases that I

 

  5   seek cert in where the opponent says well, the law

 

  6   is not all that clear at this stage, and it's

 

  7   actually quite helpful to have unpublished orders

 

  8   that say the rule in that circuit is so settled at

 

  9   this stage that they don't even bother to publish

 

 10   opinions on it anymore, so there's no reason to

 

 11   allow this to percolate.  The judicial process has

 

 12   essentially been turned off.  They've stopped

 

 13   thinking about it anymore, at least in those

 

 14   circuits that have announced a rule and therefore

 

 15   the court should take this particular vehicle for

 

 16   resolving it.

 

 17             MR. LETTER:  I'm not talking about

 

 18   publishing these opinions.  Remember all this rule

 

 19   would do is say can people cite them?  And again it

 

 20   just seems very odd that people can't even tell

 

 21   courts of appeals about opinions that at least five

 

 22   times in one term are going up to the Supreme

 

                                                               208

 

  1   Court.

 

  2             MR. PHILLIPS:  I can only think of one

 

  3   case in my entire experience where I thought that

 

  4   there was an instance of an abuse of the

 

  5   nonpublication rule and the court did grant cert in

 

  6   that particular instance.  It was a dissent and it

 

  7   struck me at the time that that was just simply a

 

  8   mistake that had been made by a particular panel.

 

  9   I don't think it was anything more than that.  I

 

 10   don't think it's a reason to change the basis rule

 

 11   in terms of how you approach these issues.

 

 12             JUDGE ALITO:  Any other questions?

 

 13             Thank you very much, Mr. Phillips.

 

 14             All right, we're going to take a very

 

 15   short break.  If we can be back here by 12:35 on

 

 16   the dot we'll try to continue.

 

 17             [Recess.]

 

 18             JUDGE ALITO:  I'll ask everybody to take

 

 19   their seats and we can get started again.

 

 20             Mr. Hangley?  Thank you for coming and for

 

 21   your comments and once again my apologies for the

 

 22   delay but we've had quite a few questions.

 

                                                               209

 

  1                 STATEMENT OF WILLIAM T. HANGLEY

 

  2             MR. HANGLEY:  Well, I have enjoyed it, I

 

  3   have learned from it and I thank you for the honor

 

  4   of being allowed to attend and testify today.

 

  5             I would like to introduce my co-counsel,

 

  6   Jimmy Morris, the president-elect of the American

 

  7   College of Trial Lawyers, who is with me to make

 

  8   sure that I don't stray from the college's agenda

 

  9   today.  As you know, the college, founded in 1950,

 

 10   is widely considered to be the premier lawyer's

 

 11   professional organization in America.

 

 12             I personally am a trial and appellate

 

 13   lawyer practicing in Philadelphia.  I am chair of a

 

 14   medium-sized firm that I founded 10 years ago,

 

 15   Hangley, Aronchick, Segal & Pudlin.

 

 16             In 2001 and 2002 I had the honor of being

 

 17   asked to examine and then prepare a report which

 

 18   ultimately became the college's report and

 

 19   recommendations on the phenomenon known as

 

 20   unpublished opinions.  And let me say that I hate

 

 21   the terminology unpublished opinion and I hate the

 

 22   terminology that's been bandied about today,

 

                                                               210

 

  1   precedential, because they both, in my view, are

 

  2   kind of meaningless terms.  Unpublished opinions

 

  3   are, in fact, published for the most part on the

 

  4   Internet.  They are accessible.  To my way of

 

  5   thinking as a lawyer, district court decisions are

 

  6   precedent, state court decisions are precedent.

 

  7   That which can be used for persuasive purpose is

 

  8   precedent.

 

  9             The big question is what is binding within

 

 10   a circuit and I use the awkward term

 

 11   circuit-binding precedence or circuit-binding cases

 

 12   when I talk about these things.  I think that might

 

 13   help clear up some of the confusion surrounding

 

 14   this question of does precedential equate to

 

 15   citability.  I don't think in terms of binding

 

 16   precedence it need necessarily do so.  I do think,

 

 17   as you know and the college believes strongly, that

 

 18   all opinions should be citable for whatever

 

 19   persuasive value they may have to the listener.

 

 20             My report, the college's report on the

 

 21   subject has been passed out to you during the

 

 22   recess.  I sneaked it up on you.  It's called

 

                                                               211

 

  1   "Opinions Hidden, Citations Forbidden: a Report and

 

  2   Recommendations of the American College of Trial

 

  3   Lawyers on the Publication and Citation of

 

  4   Nonbinding Federal Circuit Court Opinions."  It

 

  5   appears in 208 FRD 645, September of 2002 if I

 

  6   remember correctly.

 

  7             We make the following recommendations.

 

  8   One, that the rules and procedures governing the

 

  9   publication of and resort to nonbinding opinions

 

 10   should be uniform; B, that the noncircuit-binding

 

 11   opinions should all be published; and C, that

 

 12   litigants must be free to cite nonbinding circuit

 

 13   court opinions.

 

 14             We of the college are delighted that the

 

 15   Advisory Committee has recommended the adoption of

 

 16   proposed Appellate Rule 32.1.  We followed the

 

 17   debates closely and, as you know, we have not

 

 18   hesitated to pester your able reporter, Patrick

 

 19   Schiltz, with our own comments as your good work

 

 20   went forward.

 

 21             I will concentrate today on the third

 

 22   point made by the college and contemplated by the

 

                                                               212

 

  1   rules, that lawyers must be free to cite

 

  2   noncircuit-binding opinions when they consider them

 

  3   persuasive, just as they are free to cite fiction,

 

  4   doggerel, beer commercials and stand-up comics when

 

  5   they consider these "precedence-persuasive."

 

  6             I have heard my friend and college Judd

 

  7   Best, also a fellow of the college, discuss the

 

  8   need for publication and the need for uniformity in

 

  9   his separate testimony offered here today on behalf

 

 10   of the Section of Litigation of the ABA, but I

 

 11   would like to add one small voice on the question

 

 12   of uniformity because I've heard a lot about local

 

 13   option and how the courts should be left to their

 

 14   own local circuit devices and I'd like to depart

 

 15   from my prepared testimony for that purpose.

 

 16             It must be remembered that what we have

 

 17   gotten from local option in the years since

 

 18   unpublished opinions and anticipation rules came

 

 19   into existence is a Tower of Babel.  There are

 

 20   rules in the various circuits that collide with one

 

 21   another, that are consistent with one another, and

 

 22   that create a nightmare.  It is not as easy as you

 

                                                               213

 

  1   may think to know that you're following the rules,

 

  2   largely because you need not only look at whether

 

  3   or not your particular circuit where you're

 

  4   appearing allows citation; you must also look at

 

  5   the rules of the other circuits to see whether they

 

  6   forbid citation or, as the Second Circuit says,

 

  7   using it for any purpose anywhere.

 

  8             And you must then determine whether your

 

  9   local circuit has a rule that, on a kind of comity

 

 10   basis, embraces or honors the rules of the other

 

 11   circuit, and they do that.  An example, of course,

 

 12   is the D.C. Circuit where a couple of years ago

 

 13   they changed from being an anti-citation to a

 

 14   citation-permitted jurisdiction, but only

 

 15   prospectively.  So you have to know what cases you

 

 16   can cite and what cases you can't cite.  The Fifth

 

 17   Circuit changed from being a case where the

 

 18   unpublished, and they were literally unpublished

 

 19   opinions, were binding precedent to one in which

 

 20   the still unpublished opinions are not binding

 

 21   precedent.  You could and still can in cases

 

 22   decided before 1991 be bound by a precedent that

 

                                                               214

 

  1   you can't read.

 

  2             If you are arguing in the District of

 

  3   Columbia Circuit, just as one example, where they

 

  4   do have a comity rule, you will find yourself in a

 

  5   situation where--in my article I talk about this

 

  6   and I envisage a lawyer instructing his associate

 

  7   on how to write a brief form in a Section 1983

 

  8   case.  He tells her that you can cite the D.C.

 

  9   Circuit's own cases but only if they were decided

 

 10   after 2001.  The other ones go on the pantomime

 

 11   pile where you can talk about them but you can't

 

 12   mention their names.  I don't know what the

 

 13   difference is between the pre- and post-2002

 

 14   decisions but there is one.

 

 15             You can cite opinions from the Fourth,

 

 16   Sixth, Eighth and Tenth Circuits if you have to.

 

 17   You could cite cases from the Fifth and the

 

 18   Eleventh Circuit but there aren't any; that is, you

 

 19   won't be able to find them.  I don't know why that

 

 20   is, either.  You'll find some Third Circuit

 

 21   unpublished cases lately but they're all very

 

 22   recent.  You can cite them in a pinch, I think. 

 

                                                               215

 

  1   You'll also find a few such cases in the First

 

  2   Circuit but, as of the time of this writing you

 

  3   can't cite them or mention the actual cases in the

 

  4   brief.

 

  5             There are lots of cases from the Seventh,

 

  6   Ninth and Federal Circuits but you can't mention

 

  7   their names, either, in the D.C. Circuit because of

 

  8   the D.C. Circuit rule.  And although the Second

 

  9   Circuit cases are all over the Internet, you're not

 

 10   even allowed to think about them, much less talk

 

 11   about them.  It's probably best that you not read

 

 12   them at all.  Why do they publish them?  I have no

 

 13   idea.

 

 14             That's where local option gets you in

 

 15   these rules.  That gets you, as I said before, into

 

 16   a Tower of  Babel and it really, from the

 

 17   standpoint of the litigant who is served by

 

 18   clients, not a constructive environment in which to

 

 19   have to practice law or to depend on your lawyer to

 

 20   practice it for you.

 

 21             I should observe that like the Advisory

 

 22   Committee, the American College of Trial Lawyers

 

                                                               216

 

  1   does not take any position on the question whether

 

  2   courts can or cannot constitutionally take the

 

  3   position that all cases must be binding precedent

 

  4   in the deciding circuit.  The Anatasoff, Hart v.

 

  5   Massanari debate is one we think that is

 

  6   appropriately left to courts.  We agree that it is

 

  7   not the work of this committee or of the Supreme

 

  8   Court, in the rulemaking context at least.

 

  9             As a practicing lawyer, too, I can't help

 

 10   observing that we are not much troubled much of the

 

 11   time by the question whether a decision is or is

 

 12   not a "binding" precedent within the circuit where

 

 13   we're arguing, and that's simply because most cases

 

 14   are not squarely governed by the circuit-binding

 

 15   precedent.  Most of the time cases are there to be

 

 16   distinguished.  If a case is controlled by a

 

 17   precedent, from the standpoint of the lawyer in

 

 18   private practice, that is not the case that is

 

 19   going to pay the rent because that is not a case

 

 20   that is going to go very far.

 

 21             What lawyers do find troubling and what

 

 22   their client litigants finding troubling and

 

                                                               217

 

  1   personally threatening is a universe in which some

 

  2   decisions are off-base, taboo, not to be discussed.

 

  3   There should be no restriction, in our view, upon

 

  4   litigant citations to nonbinding opinions for

 

  5   whatever persuasive merit they are thought to have.

 

  6             Assuming that a circuit court can decide

 

  7   that a given holding will not be a binding

 

  8   precedent in a future case, that court or any court

 

  9   can surely decide what weight it wishes to give to

 

 10   that persuasive point.  I think, Judge Stewart,

 

 11   that was exactly the point that you were touching

 

 12   on in your questions earlier today.  And the courts

 

 13   should not be attempting because they're really not

 

 14   terribly good a it so far as I can tell, at making

 

 15   the a priori judgment that nothing in today's

 

 16   holding could possibly be pertinent to an argument

 

 17   in some future case.

 

 18             Courts signal a lack of confidence in

 

 19   their own decisions when they prohibit the public's

 

 20   representatives from even discussing what the

 

 21   courts themselves have said and that can't be

 

 22   healthy for the growth of the law.  The limited

 

                                                               218

 

  1   available information also demonstrates not

 

  2   surprisingly that appellate judges are sometimes

 

  3   fallible in their decision that a case adds nothing

 

  4   to the law or is not precedent.

 

  5             Let me mention here a case that Chief

 

  6   Judge Mayer mentioned in his own remarks today.

 

  7   That was the Symbol Technology case in the Federal

 

  8   Circuit.  That case involved the arcane issue of

 

  9   prosecution estoppel of patents.  It means not much

 

 10   to me but it was at one time a very important issue

 

 11   in patent law and the Supreme Court in the '20s had

 

 12   held in various contexts that there was such a

 

 13   doctrine, an equitable doctrine of prosecution

 

 14   estoppel, that would stop someone from claiming

 

 15   patent infringement in certain circumstances where

 

 16   he had been guilty of delay in raising his rights,

 

 17   deliberate delay.

 

 18             There came some amendments to the Patent

 

 19   Act, actually a new Patent Act, and in the 1980s

 

 20   the Federal Circuit decided that the doctrine no

 

 21   longer had any vitality and in effect, that the

 

 22   Supreme Court's decisions had been overruled since

 

                                                               219

 

  1   Silentio by Congress's failure to mention this

 

  2   doctrine in enacting the Patent Act.

 

  3             Now those two cases, one called Bott and

 

  4   one called Ricoh, were on the electronic books for

 

  5   some 14 years.  They were cases that were widely

 

  6   discussed by lawyers.  They were cases that you

 

  7   would find described as setting the law in Chisum

 

  8   on Patents and other tomes involving patent rights

 

  9   and patent infringement.  They were generally

 

 10   considered to be the law although they were not

 

 11   published in F.2d or F.3d.

 

 12             Importantly, those are cases which by the

 

 13   standards of the Federal Circuit itself

 

 14   respectfully, should have been--one at least of

 

 15   them should have been a published circuit-binding

 

 16   opinion if you followed their standards, that it

 

 17   established new law that hadn't been decided

 

 18   before.  There are six or seven different of their

 

 19   standards that were not followed in that case.

 

 20             Fourteen years later in the Symbol

 

 21   Technology case the Federal Circuit decided just

 

 22   the opposite.  They decided that without ever

 

                                                               220

 

  1   mentioning the Bott and the Ricoh decision, they

 

  2   decided that the law was not at all changed after

 

  3   the enactment of the Patent Act, there had been no

 

  4   mistake, and since Silentio that these two

 

  5   unpublished opinions were wrong.  Interestingly,

 

  6   there is not a mention of those two well publicized

 

  7   if not published opinions in the Symbol Technology

 

  8   case.

 

  9             Interestingly, too, the attorneys on one

 

 10   side or the other--I forget which--moved the court

 

 11   for an exception.  This will be contrary to what we

 

 12   heard from Judge Wood this morning about what

 

 13   happens in the Seventh Circuit.  They moved for an

 

 14   exception to the general doctrine and said please

 

 15   let us cite these two cases because they are

 

 16   important cases and they are squarely on all fours

 

 17   with the issue that you have before you.

 

 18             The Federal Circuit did not mention the

 

 19   two cases.  The Federal Circuit simply said that

 

 20   the request to cite unpublished opinions of this

 

 21   court is denied.  We know only because Judge Newman

 

 22   wrote a scholarly and vehement dissent in that case

 

                                                               221

 

  1   that, in fact, it was the Bott and Ricoh cases that

 

  2   these people wanted to cite and she took the court

 

  3   to task for not at least dealing with authorities,

 

  4   whether circuit-binding or not, that were out there

 

  5   and deserved to be discussed after all of these

 

  6   years.

 

  7             That's the kind of thing that can happen

 

  8   with a priori judgments that a case is or is not to

 

  9   be accorded the honor of being published in F. 3d

 

 10   and that therefore citation will or will not depend

 

 11   on its being published on paper instead of merely

 

 12   electronically.

 

 13             For a court to blind itself in advance to

 

 14   the persuasive power of its own reasoning to the

 

 15   college makes no sense.  It undermines the process

 

 16   of stare decisis and it corrodes, we think, the

 

 17   crucial public perception that cases are decided by

 

 18   the rule of law and not arbitrarily.

 

 19             I was impressed today by the fact that no

 

 20   one mentioned the First Amendment.  There is a

 

 21   serious question as to whether a court can prohibit

 

 22   parties and their lawyers from telling them about

 

                                                               222

 

  1   the court's decisions.  As committee members are

 

  2   all too aware, there's discussed in the article

 

  3   that many reputable judges and scholars have raised

 

  4   serious questions about whether anti-citation rules

 

  5   can pass muster under the speech and petition

 

  6   clauses of the First Amendment, separation of

 

  7   powers, whether they are within the scope of an

 

  8   Article III courts' powers in the first place, or

 

  9   whether they are a denial of equal protection or

 

 10   due process.

 

 11             Stated as an abstract proposition, a rule

 

 12   that lawyers can't cite judicial statements they

 

 13   consider persuasive or criticize the ones they

 

 14   consider erroneous is just unthinkable.  Imposing

 

 15   prior restraints on citizen references to the

 

 16   public words or acts of any public official--a

 

 17   judge, a mayor, a crossing guard--seems undeniably

 

 18   contrary to our treasured notions of freedom of

 

 19   speech and of the compact between citizens and

 

 20   their government.

 

 21             The common law on stare decisis more

 

 22   narrowly are built on the premise that lawyers will

 

                                                               223

 

  1   use one judge's reasoning to persuade the next

 

  2   judge not that his case is controlled by an earlier

 

  3   decision but that its reasoning lights the path

 

  4   that the court should consider in addressing the

 

  5   present dispute.  To tell lawyers and the public

 

  6   that they must disregard some 80 percent of the

 

  7   available reasoning--and let's remember that most

 

  8   of the time the judges do get it right in these

 

  9   unpublished opinions--must foreswear 80 percent of

 

 10   the available reasoning is really a radical step in

 

 11   itself.  Changing that rule is not what's radical.

 

 12   That we have the rule in the first place in some

 

 13   circuits is the radical thing.

 

 14             It becomes even more radical, as others

 

 15   have noted today, when we consider that judges all

 

 16   over the country regularly cite the

 

 17   noncircuit-binding opinions of state courts,

 

 18   district courts, and other courts, even if in the

 

 19   mother courts, the issuing courts themselves, the

 

 20   court could not do that.  The thinking can't be

 

 21   that the less than optimally vetted analyses are to

 

 22   be avoided completely but that the rulemaking

 

                                                               224

 

  1   tribunal doesn't want to show less than its very

 

  2   best work, but that work is already shown because

 

  3   it is released to the Internet and it is available

 

  4   and it is, in the final analysis, a paltry excuse

 

  5   for gagging lawyers and their clients.

 

  6             Second, contrary to the rationale of the

 

  7   anti-citation rule, the record demonstrates

 

  8   compellingly that the nonbinding opinions are not

 

  9   uniformly redundant.  They do say something new on

 

 10   certain occasions.  Sometimes they are important

 

 11   building blocks of the corpus juris.

 

 12             In the article I discuss the A pile cases

 

 13   that are marked as binding precedent and the B pile

 

 14   cases that are easy and redundant or automatic or

 

 15   nothing new but as several of you have mentioned,

 

 16   the Supreme Court regularly considers those cases

 

 17   and you wouldn't expect that of a redundant

 

 18   decision.  Nor would you expect to see dissents

 

 19   from redundant or automatic decisions but dissents

 

 20   are not uncommon in noncircuit-binding

 

 21   dispositions.

 

 22             Third, with all due respect to the good

 

                                                               225

 

  1   faith of the appellate bench and its attempts to

 

  2   follow its own rules, it's impossible to avoid

 

  3   concluding that some cases go into the nonbinding

 

  4   pile because they have not been given enough

 

  5   attention for the judges to be comfortable with

 

  6   them.  We discuss in the article several instances

 

  7   where it should have been obvious from the start

 

  8   that a particular decision should never have gone

 

  9   onto the uncitable pile in the first place because

 

 10   it was not at all redundant.

 

 11             We discussed already the Symbol

 

 12   Technologies case but the Anatasoff case by Judge

 

 13   Arnold relies on a case called Christie that was a

 

 14   case of first impression in the Eighth Circuit, one

 

 15   which should have been published under the Eighth

 

 16   Circuit's own rules.

 

 17             The Fifth Circuit's nonbinding decision in

 

 18   a case called Anderson versus Dallas Area Rapid

 

 19   Transit was a case of first impression.  It

 

 20   addressed the Eleventh Amendment immunity of a

 

 21   metropolitan transit authority.  A later published

 

 22   decision of that Fifth Circuit came out with a

 

                                                               226

 

  1   different ruling and there was a strong dissent

 

  2   from one of the panel members, who participated in

 

  3   the ruling but dissented from the petition for

 

  4   rehearing because he said having these two opinions

 

  5   on the books, we should at least have discussed the

 

  6   earlier opinion in the first place.

 

  7             There's a case called Barry Sterling

 

  8   versus Pescor Plastics, again in the Federal

 

  9   Circuit.  It was an unpublished opinion but it was

 

 10   a good and sensible attempt to resolve an obvious

 

 11   conflict between two published opinions of the same

 

 12   circuit that had reasonably come down.  Yet it was

 

 13   a decision that tried to harmonize them, one

 

 14   resolving an intracircuit conflict, another stated

 

 15   reason in most of these local rules for publishing

 

 16   opinions and making them circuit-binding, in fact.

 

 17   Yet that case could not be cited and it was a case

 

 18   where I personally, my client suffered badly

 

 19   because the district court refused to allow the

 

 20   citation of the federal circuit opinion harmonizing

 

 21   the two precedents.

 

 22             The Ninth Circuit's decision in a case

 

                                                               227

 

  1   called Kish v. City of Santa Monica was at odds

 

  2   with a decision of another circuit.  The case had

 

  3   to do with a Section 1983 claim of a fugitive who

 

  4   was bitten by a police dog and the question was

 

  5   one, of course, of excessive force and the Ninth

 

  6   Circuit's decision was squarely at odds with a

 

  7   decision of, I believe, the Seventh Circuit but I'm

 

  8   not entirely sure that I've got the circuit right.

 

  9             That case was not published and indeed in

 

 10   a case called Sorchina v. City of Covina, an

 

 11   attorney who dared to cite the Kish case, the

 

 12   unpublished Kish case, in another Sectoin 1983

 

 13   fugitive dog bite case, if you can believe they get

 

 14   two in the same circuit, the lawyer who had cited

 

 15   that opinion was made to come before the Ninth

 

 16   Circuit and show cause why she should not be

 

 17   subjected to sanctions for having the temerity to

 

 18   tell the court about its own decision in the

 

 19   earlier Kish case.  That is very troubling.  That

 

 20   suggests that the sorting mechanism isn't a perfect

 

 21   mechanism.

 

 22             The anti-citation rules finally do not

 

                                                               228

 

  1   help the courts.  So far as one can tell from

 

  2   reading the cases, it cannot fairly be said what

 

  3   I've heard people say today, that the quality of

 

  4   justice will change if the anti-citation rules are

 

  5   overruled by the proposed Rule 32.1.

 

  6             Someone mentioned doing a study.  Study

 

  7   after study has already been done.  The work of,

 

  8   for example, Professor Lauren Robel from the

 

  9   University of Indiana, I believe, with regard to

 

 10   what cases judges consider, with regard to what

 

 11   judges do in this, that or the other circuit,

 

 12   anti-citation and non-anti-citation circuits, has

 

 13   led to the conclusion that you cannot say that

 

 14   Ninth Circuit judges have to work harder than Tenth

 

 15   Circuit judges or that the quality of the published

 

 16   opinions in the Sixth Circuit is demonstrably lower

 

 17   than the quality of published opinions in the Ninth

 

 18   Circuit, comparing anti-citation to

 

 19   citation-available courts across the board.  You

 

 20   simply cannot say that.  There is no evidence to

 

 21   suggest that the anti-citation rules have led to a

 

 22   quality of circuit-binding case law in one circuit

 

                                                               229

 

  1   that is markedly superior to that in another

 

  2   circuit or that the absence of such a rule has led

 

  3   to a pronounced inferiority in the others.

 

  4             In sum, parties and the lawyers they hire

 

  5   must be allowed to pursue justice by every ethical

 

  6   means and use every weapon in their arsenal and

 

  7   that includes citing opinions that lawyers find

 

  8   persuasive or that they hope the tribunal will find

 

  9   persuasive for their persuasive purposes.  The

 

 10   American College of Trial Lawyers supports the

 

 11   proposed new rule, congratulates the committee on

 

 12   drafting it and putting it forth, and we strongly

 

 13   urge its adoption.  Thank you very much.

 

 14             JUDGE ALITO:  Thank you.

 

 15             Any questions?

 

 16             MR. SVETCOV:  Mr. Hangley, why can't you

 

 17   use the persuasive value of the arguments made in

 

 18   an unpublished opinion in your briefs without

 

 19   citing to the case itself?  And I ask that because

 

 20   it's my impression that the principal reason for

 

 21   citing to the case itself is to give the perhaps

 

 22   misleading impression that three judges have signed

 

                                                               230

 

  1   onto that reasoning when, in fact, we've been

 

  2   hearing testimony that they may not, in fact,l have

 

  3   signed onto it but only to the bottom line; that is

 

  4   to say, the result in the case.  They haven't

 

  5   looked at the nuances of the language of the

 

  6   opinion.

 

  7             So go ahead and make the argument if you

 

  8   think it's persuasive but why suggest that three

 

  9   judges have signed onto it?

 

 10             MR. HANGLEY:  Because one

 

 11   persuasive--first of all, let me begin with the

 

 12   proposition, and I certainly fervently believe and

 

 13   we hope that this is true, that when judges write

 

 14   noncircuit-binding opinions, just as when district

 

 15   judges write opinions and even when district judges

 

 16   write opinions that aren't going to be published in

 

 17   F. Sup., that all of those judges are really trying

 

 18   to get it right.

 

 19             Likewise let me indulge in another thing

 

 20   in which I firmly believe, that in the great

 

 21   majority of instances they do get it right, that

 

 22   they are thoughtful, honest scholars who, while

 

                                                               231

 

  1   they are not publishing what Judge Kozinski would

 

  2   call a law review article, are certainly turning in

 

  3   an honest day's work or an honest hour's work on

 

  4   this opinion.

 

  5             It makes sense not to have to do a

 

  6   pantomime act.  You shouldn't have to say well, one

 

  7   could have a hypothetical in which this, this and

 

  8   this happens and one might come out this way.  I

 

  9   think it's far better to say that in such-and-such

 

 10   a case, which of course is not a binding precedent

 

 11   in this court, either because it's from a district

 

 12   court or because it's from another circuit or

 

 13   because it's from your court but you have chosen

 

 14   noncircuit-binding status for it, you decided the

 

 15   following and let the court decide how persuasive

 

 16   it considers that argument to be.

 

 17             The wonderful thing about the common law

 

 18   and the wonderful thing about our adversarial

 

 19   system is that what we say is let's have a lawyer

 

 20   on each side to make the most persuasive case that

 

 21   he can for the litigants and then the judge will

 

 22   decide how persuasive he is.  It's an excellent

 

                                                               232

 

  1   system, it serves us well but someone is changing

 

  2   it by saying you can't mention the fact that I said

 

  3   this.

 

  4             And frankly, most of us who are out there

 

  5   plowing in the fields consider that proposition

 

  6   just incomprehensible.  What's that old Mark Twain

 

  7   line that Justice Jackson quoted in the Chettery

 

  8   case?  "The more you explain it the more I don't

 

  9   understand it."

 

 10             MR. SVETCOV:  Well, do you draw a

 

 11   distinction between getting it right and how they

 

 12   got there to get it right?

 

 13             MR. HANGLEY:  You know, you asked some

 

 14   questions earlier about how much of the facts they

 

 15   tell you and that the parties know the facts.  We

 

 16   both know as practicing lawyers that it is very

 

 17   difficult to write anything without putting a fact

 

 18   into it.  We also know that in the course of laying

 

 19   things out a court will tell you something, once

 

 20   you get past the judgment order idea, a court will

 

 21   tell you something about its thinking processes.

 

 22   And I may not care terribly about the facts; on the

 

                                                               233

 

  1   other hand, I might.  But in the cases where I

 

  2   don't much care about the facts, I may only cite to

 

  3   a proposition of law that a judge utters in a

 

  4   particularly felicitous way that I think will lend

 

  5   itself well to my facts and there's nothing

 

  6   dishonest about saying that.

 

  7             In another case, as Judd Best suggested to

 

  8   you earlier, you might want to go back and look at

 

  9   the record and see what the facts were and say this

 

 10   judge of this court or these three judges of this

 

 11   court were persuaded by this particular argument

 

 12   and here is what the facts were.  Now is that

 

 13   heretical?  No.  I have done exactly the same thing

 

 14   with respect to published opinions and, as you

 

 15   know, there are many, many published opinions out

 

 16   there where sometimes, as a result of conscious

 

 17   decision by the court or sometimes I think despite

 

 18   the court's best efforts, you can't find in the

 

 19   published circuit-binding opinion the critical fact

 

 20   that you need to know in order to determine whether

 

 21   that particular precedent is or is not going to be

 

 22   a persuasive precedent for you to bring to the

 

                                                               234

 

  1   court and therefore you have to go to the briefs

 

  2   or, better yet, you have to go into the decision of

 

  3   the trial court or the record of the court below.

 

  4   It happens both with published and unpublished

 

  5   opinions.

 

  6             Lawyers, by the way, are perfectly

 

  7   comfortable in the fact that a decision has

 

  8   persuasive power only.  We know that.   Ninety-nine

 

  9   percent of what we do, because most of it is in the

 

 10   district court or the state trial courts, deals

 

 11   with nonbinding but nevertheless arguably quite

 

 12   persuasive precedents.  That's not a sea change for

 

 13   lawyers or the people they represent.

 

 14             JUDGE ALITO:  Thank you, Mr. Hangley.  And

 

 15   Mr. Morris, thank you for coming here this morning.

 

 16             I will call on my colleague Judge Edward

 

 17   R. Becker from the United States Court of Appeals

 

 18   for the Third Circuit.

 

 19              STATEMENT OF THE HON. EDWARD R. BECKER

 

 20             JUDGE BECKER:  Thank you.  I appreciate

 

 21   the committee's indulgence.  I know you'd like to

 

 22   go to lunch but Judge Alito knows I have a very

 

                                                               235

 

  1   important mission over on the Hill this afternoon.

 

  2   I've been in the process of mediating with Senator

 

  3   Specter the asbestos legislative package and hope

 

  4   to be making some progress this afternoon, so I

 

  5   appreciate your indulgence.  I'll try to speak with

 

  6   celerity.  I have copies for the members of the

 

  7   committee.  It is somewhat in outline form, so if

 

  8   the members of the committee would like to follow

 

  9   along, I have copies of my statement.

 

 10             My name is Edward Becker.  I have been a

 

 11   judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the

 

 12   Third Circuit for over 22 years.  I was chief judge

 

 13   for over five years.  Prior to that I was a judge

 

 14   of the United States District Court for the Eastern

 

 15   District of Pennsylvania for 11 years, so that I

 

 16   have been a federal judge for over 33 years.

 

 17             I appear on my own behalf, although I

 

 18   believe that the views that I express fairly

 

 19   represent the views of the judges of the United

 

 20   States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit with

 

 21   respect to our experience with the citation of what

 

 22   we call nonprecedential opinions.  We used to call

 

                                                               236

 

  1   them not-for-publication opinions but now we call

 

  2   them nonprecedential opinions and I'll refer to

 

  3   them as NPOs.  I do not represent that I speak for

 

  4   the court with respect to the proposed national

 

  5   rule.

 

  6             I support the adoption of new Rule 32.1.

 

  7   I find the arguments set forth in the draft

 

  8   committee note persuasive and I will not repeat

 

  9   them here.  Rather, I will limit myself to an

 

 10   accounting of the Third Circuit experience, to

 

 11   comments on the objections raised to proposed 32.1,

 

 12   and to the reasons that I favor the proposed rule.

 

 13             First, the Third Circuit experience.  In

 

 14   our experience citations to nonprecedential

 

 15   opinions are not frequent.  Such citation, and they

 

 16   are cited from time to time, has never created any

 

 17   problem for us.  Indeed, when they are cited, and,

 

 18   as I said, they are from time to time, they have

 

 19   often been useful in a number of respects.

 

 20             First, they give us the benefit of the

 

 21   thinking of a previous panel and help us to focus

 

 22   on or think through the issues.  For busy judges

 

                                                               237

 

  1   that is a tremendous boon.

 

  2             Second, they identify issues on which we

 

  3   should be writing a precedential opinion.  When an

 

  4   issue has been dealt with in an NPO and then it

 

  5   comes up again, that is a signal that we need to

 

  6   clarify the law precedentially.

 

  7             Now there's a suggestion in the committee

 

  8   materials that in United States versus

 

  9   Rivera-Sanchez the Ninth Circuit admitted that

 

 10   various panels had issued at least 20 unpublished

 

 11   opinions resolving the same unsettled issues of law

 

 12   at least three different ways before any published

 

 13   opinion addressed the issue.  I spoke to Judge

 

 14   Kozinski about it and he assures me that that's not

 

 15   so and I accept his explanation.  But once or twice

 

 16   is too much.  If you see the same issue coming up a

 

 17   second time or a third time, then it is time

 

 18   whether or not there's a conflict.  It is time to

 

 19   settle it.  It saves the time of the lawyer, it

 

 20   saves the time of the district judges, it saves the

 

 21   time of everybody.

 

 22             These citations help the district judges

 

                                                               238

 

  1   in the same way they help us.  District judges know

 

  2   they're not bound by our NPOs.  They're judges of

 

  3   the Third Article, just like we are, and they

 

  4   exercise independent judgment, but these opinions

 

  5   are useful.

 

  6             Now let me turn to the Third Circuit

 

  7   practice in connection with NPOs.  We write on

 

  8   every counseled case.  Seventy-nine percent of our

 

  9   opinions are nonprecedential opinions.  Most are

 

 10   not cursory.  In fact, they average over seven

 

 11   pages.  The clerk of our court Marcie Waldron is

 

 12   here and indeed the statistics she gave me the

 

 13   other day are 7.13 pages.  Actually it's 8.13 pages

 

 14   but we deduct a page for the caption.

 

 15             Because they are primarily written for the

 

 16   parties, they often or usually do not set forth the

 

 17   facts but some NPOs do and some are fairly

 

 18   comprehensive.  In all events, they uniformly set

 

 19   forth the ratio decidendi of the opinion.

 

 20             Our NPOs are prepared in chambers under

 

 21   the close supervision of the judge.  They're

 

 22   usually drafted by the clerks but to repeat, they

 

                                                               239

 

  1   are carefully reviewed and edited by the judge and

 

  2   to me the notion that a judge would sign on the

 

  3   bottom line without examining the language and

 

  4   rationale of the opinion is startling.  It does not

 

  5   happen, I assure you, in the Third Circuit.

 

  6             In my chambers all the NPOs are written by

 

  7   me.  Why do I write them myself?  Well, they're

 

  8   generally easy opinions and if you gave them to the

 

  9   law clerks they'd take too much time on them and I

 

 10   need the law clerks for the hard, comprehensive

 

 11   opinions.  So I do the NPOs myself and then the law

 

 12   clerks edit them and correct them and cite-check,

 

 13   and so forth.  Of course, when the law clerks have

 

 14   done a bench memo in the case I draw on it.

 

 15             Our NPOs are sufficiently lucid that their

 

 16   citations can be valuable.  All of our NPOs in

 

 17   counseled cases are placed on line and hence are

 

 18   reported in the Federal Appendix.  We do not place

 

 19   our pro se opinions on line, although we write

 

 20   opinions in many, many, many pro se cases.

 

 21             Now let me contrast our practice with the

 

 22   comments made to the committee about the practice

 

                                                               240

 

  1   elsewhere.  I refer to representations that--this

 

  2   is all in the committee material--unpublished

 

  3   opinions are hurriedly drafted by staff and clerks

 

  4   and are written in loose, sloppy language.  Two,

 

  5   because they receive little attention from judges,

 

  6   these opinions often contain statements of law that

 

  7   are imprecise or inaccurate.  Three, judges are

 

  8   careful to make sure that the result is correct but

 

  9   they spend little time reviewing the opinion

 

 10   itself.  Four, citing unpublished opinions might

 

 11   mislead lower courts and others about the views of

 

 12   a circuit's judges.  And five, it will be the rare

 

 13   unpublished opinion that will precisely and

 

 14   comprehensively describe the views of any of the

 

 15   panel's judges.

 

 16             Now apparently these comments reflect the

 

 17   views in the Ninth Circuit, which is where the

 

 18   principal complaints about 32.1 seem to come from,

 

 19   but these descriptions of NPOs do not reflect the

 

 20   practice in the Third Circuit where, as I have

 

 21   said, the judges are involved with the drafting of

 

 22   the NPOs and in all events they are reviewed with

 

                                                               241

 

  1   care.

 

  2             Moreover, we often have dissents from NPOs

 

  3   and concurrences, as well.  Just ask your chairman.

 

  4   In the last two months I have filed two dissents

 

  5   from his nonprecedential opinions and now the

 

  6   subject of fervent petitions for rehearing with a

 

  7   panel and before the court en banc, and I also

 

  8   filed one concurrence from one of your chairman's

 

  9   nonprecedential opinions.  So we take them

 

 10   seriously.

 

 11             We do not consider them a burden.  They

 

 12   don't take that much time to prepare and there is

 

 13   no delay in processing them and they are typically

 

 14   filed promptly after the regularly scheduled

 

 15   disposition case.  Most are on nonargued cases but

 

 16   many are on argued cases and I cannot say that they

 

 17   detract from our ability to do precedential

 

 18   opinions, as many as we always did.

 

 19             Now let me turn to the criticisms of the

 

 20   proposed 32.1.  That is the burden on the judges'

 

 21   time.  Well, as I've said, they are not burdensome

 

 22   to prepare.  Somebody in the materials said that

 

                                                               242

 

  1   maybe there's a moral obligation to distinguish

 

  2   NPOs that are cited to us.  I don't think so.  We

 

  3   don't even have to distinguish every precedential

 

  4   case in our opinion.  I mean when you see the size

 

  5   of some of the briefs, Bill Hangley talked about

 

  6   what they do in the trenches and they turn out a

 

  7   lot of long briefs in the trenches and cite a lot

 

  8   of cases.  If every time we did an opinion we had

 

  9   to distinguish every case or deal with every case

 

 10   that the lawyers cite to us, our job would be

 

 11   endless.  We don't have to do that and neither do

 

 12   we have to do it with respect to nonprecedential

 

 13   opinions.

 

 14             Are there too many NPOs cited?  That's not

 

 15   our experience.  We have a responsible bar.  It

 

 16   doesn't want to waste its time.  It doesn't want to

 

 17   waste its own time.  If a useless case is cited it

 

 18   doesn't take very long to discover that fact.  You

 

 19   can look at it and very quickly you can say that's

 

 20   not going to be of any help and the citation's

 

 21   ignored.

 

 22             And the same is true about the criticism

 

                                                               243

 

  1   of undue consumption of the lawyers' time.  The

 

  2   same considerations are at work.  It doesn't take

 

  3   them long to discard an NPO of no utility but if

 

  4   they find one that is persuasive, then it's worth

 

  5   the time.

 

  6             Another criticism is the bloating of the

 

  7   corpus juris.  Well, the cow's out of the barn.

 

  8   It's beyond our control.  The NPOs are on line and

 

  9   in the Federal Appendix.  If the lawyers want them

 

 10   the market, the supreme arbiter, has spoken.  And

 

 11   the fact of the business is that NPOs help the

 

 12   lawyers in other ways.  They help them evaluate

 

 13   cases for settlement, cases that never get into

 

 14   court.

 

 15             What is the rationale for 32.1, at least

 

 16   in my point of view?  The citation issue was not a

 

 17   real one for us until we jettisoned our former

 

 18   practice of deciding almost half of our cases with

 

 19   judgement orders, essentially one-line

 

 20   dispositions, and in many, many, probably 40-45

 

 21   percent of these cases, there had been no oral

 

 22   argument.

 

                                                               244

 

  1             Now when I became chief judge I said to my

 

  2   colleagues this is terrible.  You're a lawyer, you

 

  3   appeal a case, you don't get oral argument and you

 

  4   get a one-line disposition.  We owe more to our

 

  5   colleagues at the bar, we owe more to our

 

  6   profession--after all, we're nothing but lawyers

 

  7   with a robe and a commission--we owe more than that

 

  8   to them and to their clients.  I viewed it and view

 

  9   it--and I will segue this into the rationale--as a

 

 10   matter of respect.  It's a matter of respect for

 

 11   our profession.  It's a matter of accountability.

 

 12   It's a matter of responsibility.

 

 13             My colleagues agreed and we ceased writing

 

 14   judgment orders and we now write NPOs--we used to

 

 15   call them memoranda of opinions--in every case.

 

 16             I view the proposed noncitation rule in

 

 17   essentially the same way.  How can we say to

 

 18   members of our profession--we're all members of the

 

 19   same profession.  Remember, we judges work for them

 

 20   and their clients and the public.  They don't work

 

 21   for us.  It goes with the territory when we took

 

 22   this job.  How can we say to them that they can't

 

                                                               245

 

  1   cite to us what we've said?

 

  2             Now that sounds like what Judge Arnold

 

  3   said in Anatasoff.  Anatasoff's not the law.  We're

 

  4   not bound by an NPO but we can at least if the case

 

  5   is cited think about it and we can't do that if the

 

  6   cases are not cited to us.

 

  7             And I must score the suggestion in the

 

  8   Advisory Committee materials that the NPOs be

 

  9   phased out in favor of more precedential opinions

 

 10   and one-line judgments.  I would reject that for

 

 11   the reason that we reject it in the Third Circuit,

 

 12   one-line judgment orders.  That's not the way

 

 13   courts of appeals should do business.

 

 14             Why then a national rule?  Several

 

 15   reasons.  First the zeitgeist, if I may use that

 

 16   phrase, for the last several decades.  The chairman

 

 17   and I have a colleague in Newark who would not let

 

 18   me use that in an opinion.  She would ax it but

 

 19   that's all right.  The zeitgeist for the last

 

 20   several decades, animated by Congress as well as by

 

 21   the Judicial Conference, is in favor of national

 

 22   rules.  Local rules, in the view of the Congress

 

                                                               246

 

  1   and the conference, as I understand it, and I

 

  2   served on the conference for over five years,

 

  3   they're for experimentation and for innovation.

 

  4   That principle doesn't apply here.  Sometimes

 

  5   there's an exception for a local culture but that's

 

  6   a local, not a circuit-wide geographic notion.

 

  7             We're all affected by national rules.  Is

 

  8   your ox gored?  Our ox is gored.  The proposed en

 

  9   banc quorum rule alters a Third Circuit rule.  We

 

 10   like our rule you pass a new rule and the

 

 11   conference approves it and the Congress doesn't

 

 12   knock it down, fine, we'll live by the new and

 

 13   different rule.

 

 14             Thirdly, law practice is national.  Our

 

 15   sittings regularly have attorneys from New York,

 

 16   Chicago, California, and elsewhere.  Procedure is

 

 17   complicated enough.  Sure, they can look up a local

 

 18   rule but they're unsure about its operation, and

 

 19   that's costly.  You've got to check around.  In my

 

 20   view a national rule is better.

 

 21             But to get to the bottom line, the

 

 22   strongest reasons for the national rule are those

 

                                                               247

 

  1   that I described above when I talked about our

 

  2   jettisoning the judgement order--our duty to the

 

  3   bar and the public, our respect for the bar and the

 

  4   litigants, responsibility, accountability, all of

 

  5   which is undergirded and informed by what I view as

 

  6   the unreasonableness of saying to lawyers that you

 

  7   can't cite what we've written.  In my view, Rule

 

  8   32.1, for these reasons which go to the core of our

 

  9   professional responsibility, they have a right, and

 

 10   that's why I endorse the rule.

 

 11             That concludes my formal statement and I'd

 

 12   be glad to answer any questions that any members of

 

 13   the committee have.

 

 14             MR. LEVY:  Judge Becker, thank you for

 

 15   your thoughtful statement 's got to give, well, I

 

 16   guess something's got to give and you don't want it

 

 17   to be your sleep but my estimate of the enormous

 

 18   capacity of Judge Bryson is such that I think that

 

 19   Judge Bryson could do it all.  And I think that if

 

 20   he's stuck with Rule 32.1, like the republic, Judge

 

 21   Bryson will not just survive but he will thrive.

 

 22             MR. LEVY:  Were we all like Bill Bryson.

 

                                                               248

 

  1             MR. SVETCOV:  Just to follow up on Mark

 

  2   Levy's question, I'm Sandy Svetcov.  I have a

 

  3   practice in San Francisco in the Ninth Circuit and

 

  4   unfortunately, the practice in the Ninth Circuit is

 

  5   not the same as in your circuit, Judge Becker.

 

  6   There are a huge number of cases, 5,000

 

  7   dispositions by mem dispo or by published opinion

 

  8   each year, 777 published precedential opinions,

 

  9   over 4,000 mem dispos and the mem dispos typically

 

 10   begin with the following sentence:  "The parties

 

 11   are familiar with the facts."  Then there are a

 

 12   couple of paragraphs, often sometimes a couple of

 

 13   pages, of discussion, and they are written for the

 

 14   parties.

 

 15             The judges, except for Judge Tashima, have

 

 16   all testified before us in written statements that

 

 17   they, like Judge Bryson, perceive that their work

 

 18   would change.  They, unlike the Third Circuit, do

 

 19   not have all of those mem dispos done in chambers.

 

 20   Some are done by central staff attorneys and then

 

 21   presented to a panel of judges for disposition

 

 22   without oral argument in nonpublished,

 

                                                               249

 

  1   nonprecedential form.

 

  2             JUDGE BECKER:  So you look them over.  So

 

  3   you read them and you scrutinize them and you edit

 

  4   them.  I mean part of the problem in the Ninth

 

  5   Circuit is the Ninth Circuit.  I mean I don't want

 

  6   to get into the splitting of the Ninth Circuit.

 

  7   I've written an article in U.S. Davis Law Review

 

  8   about the Ninth Circuit and I not only proposed

 

  9   splitting the Ninth Circuit but I proposed a

 

 10   redrawing of all the circuit lines and I said the

 

 11   republic would survive after 100 years.  You know,

 

 12   we do it every 100 years.

 

 13             But to me, I have always operated under

 

 14   the 11th commandment, that thou shalt not let the

 

 15   tail wag the dog, and it strikes me that if the

 

 16   Ninth Circuit is our caliper, the tail's wagging

 

 17   the dog.  At some point something's going to happen

 

 18   to the Ninth Circuit.  I don't know what's going to

 

 19   happen to the Ensign bill.  They had hearings last

 

 20   week, and so forth, but at some point my guess is

 

 21   the Ninth Circuit's going to be divided in some way

 

 22   and maybe the problem will take care of itself.

 

                                                               250

 

  1             MR. SVETCOV:  I've testified, as I said,

 

  2   before the White Commission in favor of some

 

  3   divisional accommodation within the Ninth Circuit,

 

  4   which some version of that was adopted by the White

 

  5   Commission, but the fact of the matter is splitting

 

  6   the Ninth Circuit will still leave, unless

 

  7   California is split--

 

  8             JUDGE BECKER:  Oh, I'm for that, too.

 

  9             MR. SVETCOV:  You know, that's something

 

 10   whose time has not come, Judge Becker, and I submit

 

 11   to you the same is true with Rule 32.1 and nothing

 

 12   further needs to be--

 

 13             JUDGE BECKER:  My point, Mr. Svetcov, is

 

 14   if what they had given you isn't worth anything,

 

 15   then you don't cite it.  That's all.  I mean the

 

 16   issue here is not the quality of their work product

 

 17   but the question of whether it's citable.  If

 

 18   they've given you two paragraphs that are

 

 19   incomprehensible, then Sanford Svetcov, good lawyer

 

 20   that he is, isn't going to bother citing it.  And

 

 21   the lawyers who are not of the Sanford Svetcov

 

 22   caliber, and they do cite it, it's going to take

 

                                                               251

 

  1   Alex Kozinski--I don't know the difference between

 

  2   a microsecond or a nanosecond but it'll be that

 

  3   fast to toss it aside.  So I don't see the burden.

 

  4             MR. SVETCOV:  Well, put yourself in my

 

  5   office.  Do I read the 777 opinions that are

 

  6   published and also the 4,000 or 5,000 that are not?

 

  7             JUDGE BECKER:  The answer is neither you

 

  8   nor anybody else reads the 700 that were published.

 

  9   When I started sitting with the Third Circuit 30

 

 10   years ago and Tom McGough's father appeared before

 

 11   us at that time, we had an audience at that time.

 

 12   The courts of appeals had an audience.  We don't

 

 13   have an audience anymore.  The bar is so huge, it

 

 14   is so specialized, it is so fractured that no

 

 15   longer reads all the opinions.  You read the

 

 16   opinions that are in your area and nobody in their

 

 17   right mind's going to read the 7,000 or however

 

 18   many there are nonprecedential or unpublished

 

 19   opinions, but you've got research tools which will

 

 20   identify if it's of any value to you.

 

 21             It strikes me, Mr. Svetcov, that this is

 

 22   an interrorem argument that in the real--I mean I'm

 

                                                               252

 

  1   not qualified to talk about the economics of law

 

  2   practice; I've been out of it for over 33 years,

 

  3   but my sense is that in terms of the economics of

 

  4   law practice, you're not going to invest a lot of

 

  5   time and a lot of your clients' money in that

 

  6   enterprise.

 

  7             MR. SVETCOV:  I don't.  That's the point.

 

  8   But if I'm facing my opponents citing to them on a

 

  9   regular basis because the floodgates are opened up

 

 10   to that stuff and I don't find the same level of

 

 11   talent on both sides of the case, then I'm faced

 

 12   with having to deal with--

 

 13             JUDGE BECKER:  Then the question is

 

 14   whether your opponent's got a brain or half a

 

 15   brain.  If he's got half a brain and he's citing

 

 16   garbage, then you don't worry about it.  If it's

 

 17   stuff that doesn't amount to a hill of beans you're

 

 18   not going to spend any time on it.  But if he cites

 

 19   an opinion, a seven- or eight-page opinion which is

 

 20   thoughtful, well then you'd damned well better deal

 

 21   with it because the court's going to look at it.

 

 22             So what else is new?  So what's wrong with

 

                                                               253

 

  1   that?

 

  2             MR. SVETCOV:  Well, as I said, if it's

 

  3   thoughtful you can adopt that reasoning and make it

 

  4   part of your case without citing to the--

 

  5             JUDGE BECKER:  Well, I heard--

 

  6             MR. SVETCOV:  Judges may or may not have

 

  7   signed off--

 

  8             JUDGE BECKER:  I heard that.  I find that

 

  9   argument underwhelming, to paraphrase the old Four

 

 10   Roses ad, Mr. Svetcov.

 

 11             MR. SVETCOV:  I've underwhelmed a lot of

 

 12   judges in my time.

 

 13             MR. McGOUGH:  Thanks for the reference to

 

 14   my father, Judge Becker.  The Third Circuit--

 

 15             JUDGE BECKER:  He was a great guy.  He

 

 16   really was.

 

 17             MR. McGOUGH:  The Third Circuit is, I

 

 18   think, maybe unique in that it allows the citation

 

 19   but has an internal operating procedure that says

 

 20   the court, by tradition, doesn't cite NPO decisions

 

 21   in its own decisions.

 

 22             Would you see that changing if Rule 32

 

                                                               254

 

  1   were amended as we've proposed?

 

  2             JUDGE BECKER:  Let me say this, Tom.

 

  3   That's a rule we haven't really looked at.  I think

 

  4   there's a disparity between the rule and the

 

  5   practice.  We surely look at them and sometimes we

 

  6   cite them.  I think, and Marcie Waldron, our clerk,

 

  7   and Judge Alito chairs the Rules Committee--we

 

  8   might consider changing that by tradition.  We

 

  9   don't do it often.

 

 10             So I think that may be somewhat

 

 11   anachronistic vis-a-vis our own practice, rather

 

 12   than Rule 32.1.

 

 13             JUDGE ALITO:  Any other questions?

 

 14             Thank you very much, Judge Becker.

 

 15             JUDGE BECKER:  Thank you for accommodating

 

 16   me.  I'm very grateful.

 

 17             JUDGE ALITO:  Thank you.  We appreciate

 

 18   your comments.

 

 19             For the record I should say that one of

 

 20   the effects of Judge Becker's redrawing of all the

 

 21   circuit lines would have been to put us in

 

 22   different circuits.  If that was the motivation or

 

                                                               255

 

  1   not, I don't know.

 

  2             MR. LETTER:  Were you going to the Ninth

 

  3   Circuit?

 

  4             JUDGE ALITO:  Before everyone collapses

 

  5   we're going to break for lunch and if we can be

 

  6   back here by 2:15, I would appreciate it.

 

  7             [Whereupon, at 1:30 p.m., the hearing

 

  8   recessed for lunch.]

 

                                                               256

 

  1                A F T E R N O O N   S E S S I O N

 

  2                                                    [2:17 p.m.]

 

  3             JUDGE ALITO:  Jessie Allen, associate

 

  4   counsel, Brennan Center for Justice.  Thank you for

 

  5   coming and once again my apologies for the lateness

 

  6   of this.

 

  7                    STATEMENT OF JESSIE ALLEN

 

  8             MS. ALLEN:  Thank you very much.  I want

 

  9   to thank you, Judge Alito and the members of the

 

 10   committee, for allowing me to testify on what the

 

 11   Brennan Center thinks is a really important issue.

 

 12             I'm an associate counsel at the Brennan

 

 13   Center for Justice at NYU School of Law.  The

 

 14   Brennan Center is a public interest nonprofit legal

 

 15   organization that uses litigation, scholarship and

 

 16   advocacy to try to evolve toward full and equal

 

 17   participation in American democracy and the Brennan

 

 18   Center really has two interests in this rule.

 

 19   We're frequent litigators in federal court, but

 

 20   it's also connected with our Fair Courts Project,

 

 21   which opposes attacks on judicial independence and

 

 22   in the course of that opposition, has worked hard

 

                                                               257

 

  1   to promote the understanding that independent

 

  2   judges are still institutionally accountable for

 

  3   fair decision-making.

 

  4             And the core of our support for Rule

 

  5   32.1--the Brennan Center strongly supports proposed

 

  6   Rule 32.1 and the core of that support is our

 

  7   belief that when courts bar citation of most of

 

  8   their routine decisions, they effectively prohibit

 

  9   litigants from advocating for consistent judicial

 

 10   treatment.

 

 11             The committee has my written statement and

 

 12   I know that everybody would be pleased by brief

 

 13   presentations this afternoon.  I'm going to make

 

 14   three brief points, all of which I think go to the

 

 15   harms that I think are caused by the no-citation

 

 16   rules.  We've heard a good deal today about the

 

 17   lack of harm that seems to be happening in courts

 

 18   where citation is allowed and we've heard some

 

 19   statements, and I must say I think the commentary

 

 20   is full of statements about the lack of harm

 

 21   created by no-citation rules.  Today we've heard

 

 22   that it would be of only marginal benefit to get

 

                                                               258

 

  1   rid of them.  There are statements like if it ain't

 

  2   broke, don't fix it, a kind of no harm, no foul

 

  3   approach.                I think there is harm created

 

  4   by citation bans and as I say, I'll make three

 

  5   brief points about that.

 

  6             One, I want to articulate for you in

 

  7   procedural due process terms the harm of

 

  8   prohibiting advocacy for consistent judicial

 

  9   treatment.  That's not to say that I'm suggesting

 

 10   that I would attempt to bring an actionable claim

 

 11   of procedure due process against no-citation rules

 

 12   but I think I can articulate it in a way that shows

 

 13   that those rules do trigger concerns about fairness

 

 14   and about legal regularity that are values that the

 

 15   due process clause has been interpreted to protect

 

 16   and that looking at it in due process terms is

 

 17   valuable because you can see that you can

 

 18   articulate in a rigorous constitutional way the

 

 19   overarching sense of arbitrariness that many people

 

 20   and many attorneys feel results in circuits that

 

 21   ban citation.

 

 22             So that's the first point I'll make in a

 

                                                               259

 

  1   minute very briefly and then I want to talk about

 

  2   two very pragmatic ways that I think no-citation

 

  3   rules prevent important information about how

 

  4   courts use their precedents, and these are

 

  5   problematic results of no-citation rules that

 

  6   happen even if those rules are not being abused,

 

  7   even if they're being used exactly as the rules are

 

  8   set up.

 

  9             So very briefly, the due process idea.

 

 10   The basic notion, as I said, is that no-citation

 

 11   rules prohibit people from arguing for consistent

 

 12   treatment and Judge Kozinski, in fact, makes this

 

 13   point and I think it also goes to the question

 

 14   about the difference or the relationship between

 

 15   citability and precedent.

 

 16             I think that it's undeniably true that

 

 17   no-citation rules prevent people from arguing you

 

 18   should do in this case something like what you did

 

 19   in these other cases.  It's a basic argument from

 

 20   consistency.  It is not the same thing as an

 

 21   argument about binding precedent.  It's quite

 

 22   coherent to say you should treat me consistently

 

                                                               260

 

  1   with the decision that this court or the court that

 

  2   reviews this court's decisions made in these other

 

  3   cases, without saying you must treat me in exactly

 

  4   the way you did because you are bound by judicial

 

  5   doctrine to treat me that way.

 

  6             Due process in American jurisprudence

 

  7   focusses on a right to be heard.  There are many

 

  8   other ways that we could imagine trying to

 

  9   guarantee fairness in governmental decision-making

 

 10   but as everyone here knows, the American

 

 11   jurisprudence focusses on a right to be heard and

 

 12   one of the things that is unquestionably a

 

 13   component of a meaningful right to be heard is a

 

 14   right to present the reasons why the decision that

 

 15   you're challenging are wrong.

 

 16             Consistency is also deeply associated with

 

 17   fairness and with correctness in many different

 

 18   moral and philosophical and legal systems.

 

 19   Interestingly, the courts' cases in reviewing

 

 20   agency decisions acknowledges quite specifically

 

 21   and directly consistency is a factor in so-called

 

 22   Skidmore deference.  I won't go into the doctrinal

 

                                                               261

 

  1   issues but it's one of the criteria that federal

 

  2   courts use in evaluating the arbitrariness or the

 

  3   correctness or the degree of deference that should

 

  4   be given to decisions of other governmental

 

  5   decision-makers and it is unclear to me why it

 

  6   should not be similarly a component in the

 

  7   evaluation of judicial decision-making.

 

  8             At any rate, that's the basic outline of

 

  9   the due process claims.  My statement then goes on

 

 10   to sort of play this out into several different due

 

 11   process doctrinal approaches that the court has

 

 12   taken.  I certainly won't belabor those points here

 

 13   but I think you see the basic core notion is that

 

 14   prohibiting somebody from arguing for consistent

 

 15   treatment would seem to be a fairly nontrial

 

 16   deprivation of the right to be heard in support of

 

 17   arguments for a government decision, and that's the

 

 18   basic due process claim.

 

 19             Now quickly the other two points about

 

 20   harms that no-citation rules cause and these might

 

 21   be considered in a way responses to counter

 

 22   arguments, the due process main issue.

 

                                                               262

 

  1             The first of these, I think, is that most

 

  2   of what we've heard about how people would want to

 

  3   and do, in fact, use currently uncitable

 

  4   unpublished opinions would be to identify what the

 

  5   court said in a specific case and bring a quote

 

  6   from that case or point to a specific ruling.  But

 

  7   I think there's another use of these cases that

 

  8   doesn't involve that and it's the following.

 

  9             The no-citation rules prohibit people from

 

 10   telling a court how they've used their precedents

 

 11   in most of their routine recent cases.  So if, for

 

 12   example, I want to argue to the court, "Your Honor,

 

 13   the precedent that my opponent is suggesting you

 

 14   follow you've ignored for the last two years in

 

 15   most of the cases in the area that we're talking

 

 16   about, whereas the precedent that I'm suggesting

 

 17   you apply you applied five times in the last six

 

 18   months in cases that while identical or maybe that

 

 19   closely similar to my case, are certainly within

 

 20   the area."

 

 21             That's a fairly sophisticated, strong

 

 22   argument about how the court's applying its

 

                                                               263

 

  1   precedents.  It's an argument that doesn't depend

 

  2   on great precision in terms of the legal analysis

 

  3   of the factual analysis of each of those specific

 

  4   cases.  Those cases are the only source of

 

  5   information about the sort of legal landscape of

 

  6   how the court is applying its precedents in most of

 

  7   its routine recent matters.

 

  8             And we've heard again and again these

 

  9   cases are not important because they're routine but

 

 10   I think that there's a value in exactly

 

 11   understanding what the court's doing in its routine

 

 12   decision-making in most of its cases.  To prohibit

 

 13   information about that strikes me as perverse.  So

 

 14   that's the first way that it's harmful.

 

 15             The second way is a question about how it

 

 16   could be misleading about the nature of the court's

 

 17   precedents to leave out these routine applications.

 

 18   We've heard from a number of sources, notably Judge

 

 19   Kozinski, about the ways allowing citation of these

 

 20   precedents, particularly quotation of these

 

 21   precedents, could mislead district judges into

 

 22   confusion about what's the court's precedential

 

                                                               264

 

  1   rules actually are by reciting all these iterations

 

  2   in nonprecedential cases of the precedential rules.

 

  3             Now the point has been made that after

 

  4   all, judges are experts in the value of

 

  5   nonprecedential versus precedential cases and if

 

  6   anyone should be able to know what those

 

  7   recitations are worth, it would be federal judges.

 

  8             But beyond that, I think the point I want

 

  9   to make is that there is another kind of deception

 

 10   that results, in fact, from excluding all of these

 

 11   routine applications of precedent from cases that

 

 12   can be discussed, and let me give you an example.

 

 13             Consider the court's application of its

 

 14   precedents regarding attempts to overturn criminal

 

 15   convictions or civil jury verdicts based on claims

 

 16   that the district judge allowed into evidence

 

 17   unconstitutional or otherwise improper evidence

 

 18   that was prejudicial.  We all know there's an abuse

 

 19   of discretion standard that's operating in those

 

 20   kind of situations and typically federal appellate

 

 21   courts are likely to affirm the verdicts or

 

 22   convictions below because they will either find

 

                                                               265

 

  1   that the district judge's evidentiary decision was

 

  2   reasonable, if not the one that they themselves

 

  3   would make, or that the evidence that was allowed

 

  4   in was harmless.

 

  5             In other words, by definition the summary

 

  6   judgments that are unpublished will contain a

 

  7   disproportionate number of those affirmances.  As

 

  8   we've said, these are the routine cases.  Although

 

  9   there certainly are some reversals, as well as

 

 10   dissents in uncitable cases, by and large the

 

 11   affirmances are packed into those cases.  So that

 

 12   means that most of these routine applications of

 

 13   the exclusionary rules and of the decisions of

 

 14   harmless error decisions are packed into uncitable

 

 15   cases.

 

 16             Well, what happens to the precedential

 

 17   case law, then?  It reflects a disproportionate

 

 18   number of reversals, of decisions by appellate

 

 19   panels to reverse district judges and say either

 

 20   that the evidence was--both that the evidence was

 

 21   harmful and that it was unconstitutionally admitted

 

 22   or wrongly admitted in the first place.  So the

 

                                                               266

 

  1   effect then is that if district judges and future

 

  2   appellate panels are only seeing the precedential

 

  3   case law, then they're seeing a piece of

 

  4   information that tells them that appellate panels

 

  5   are more disposed than they actually are to reverse

 

  6   district judges' evidentiary decisions and what

 

  7   that means is effectively that it distorts the

 

  8   precedent.  It makes the precedent appear more

 

  9   stringent, broader than it actually is.

 

 10             So I think that you could find other

 

 11   examples that would show that by this procedural

 

 12   skewing of moving affirmances into uncitable,

 

 13   undiscussable cases, you are, in fact, distorting

 

 14   the character of the precedents that remain.

 

 15             That's the end of my prepared comments in

 

 16   this short time.  For these reasons, as well as the

 

 17   ones in our statement, the Brennan Center strongly

 

 18   supports Rule 32.1 and hopes that you'll push it

 

 19   forward.

 

 20             JUDGE ALITO:  Any questions?

 

 21             JUDGE ROBERTS:  I'm very interested in the

 

 22   last comment you made.  A lot of the arguments on

 

                                                               267

 

  1   this issue are ones that we've seen for some time

 

  2   and hear over and over again but that's a new one,

 

  3   on me, anyway.

 

  4             Do you know if there's any sort of

 

  5   empirical study to support I guess the idea that

 

  6   most reported precedents or a higher percentage on

 

  7   abuse of discretion-type cases are--comparing the

 

  8   reported precedents versus the nonreported and that

 

  9   you'd expect the nonreported to have, you know,

 

 10   whatever, 90 percent affirmance, and the reported

 

 11   ones are 60 percent.  That's your point, right?

 

 12             MS. ALLEN:  Yes.

 

 13             JUDGE ROBERTS:  Do we know if there's--

 

 14             MS. ALLEN:  Not that I know of.  I think

 

 15   it would be wonderful for somebody to do such an

 

 16   empirical study.  I would certainly welcome it.

 

 17   And, of course, mine is just a logical argument but

 

 18   I've thought about it for a while and I haven't

 

 19   seen how it could not be so.

 

 20             JUDGE LEVI:  It's believed to be the case

 

 21   among district judges that we are affirmed in

 

 22   unpublished opinions and we are reversed in

 

                                                               268

 

  1   published opinions and we keep getting reversed

 

  2   when they keep revising them and they keep

 

  3   reissuing them, so it's like being reversed even

 

  4   more often.

 

  5             MS. ALLEN:  Well, by definition, if the

 

  6   rules are being applied the way they're supposed to

 

  7   be applied, that should be happening because if

 

  8   indeed the district judge and the panel of

 

  9   appellate judges are disagreeing, that presumably

 

 10   means it's an issue that's more likely to be a

 

 11   difficult legal issue, a new legal issue, and one

 

 12   that isn't controlled by existing precedent.

 

 13             MR. SVETCOV:  I can testify to the

 

 14   opposite experience.  As a criminal defense lawyer

 

 15   after 25 years as a prosecutor I went up to Seattle

 

 16   and argued a case in front of a panel of Ninth

 

 17   Circuit judges and reversed the conviction on

 

 18   404(b) evidence and insufficiency of evidence to

 

 19   support a fraud conviction, reversed, unpublished,

 

 20   unanimous, motion for publication denied.

 

 21             MS. ALLEN:  There certainly are examples

 

 22   of those kinds of reversals, although I'm not sure

 

                                                               269

 

  1   I see that they're an argument for maintaining

 

  2   no-citation rules.  But I think that everyone

 

  3   agrees that affirmances are overrepresented on

 

  4   purpose among uncitable opinions.  If they're not

 

  5   then there's something very wrong with the way

 

  6   those rules are being used.

 

  7             MR. LEVY:  This may be outside your area

 

  8   of expertise but it's not clear to me that

 

  9   no-citation rules would prevent you from counting

 

 10   results and saying in the last 20--I mean not using

 

 11   them as legal authority.  You're not using them for

 

 12   whatever reasoning or rationale they have in them.

 

 13   Are you sure or confident that you couldn't use

 

 14   unpublished decisions for that purpose?

 

 15             MS. ALLEN:  I'm not confident but I guess

 

 16   that's a question for the judges on the circuits

 

 17   that employ them.  I would think if I were

 

 18   practicing in the Ninth Circuit that I would

 

 19   certainly think I was risking being asked to show

 

 20   cause.

 

 21             MR. SVETCOV:  That's definitely not

 

 22   correct.  The Ninth Circuit has had an experimental

 

                                                               270

 

  1   rule for the past two and a half years which

 

  2   they've just signed onto for another two and a half

 

  3   years which allows the citation of unpublished

 

  4   opinions in connection with opposing or applying

 

  5   for rehearing en banc to show circuit

 

  6   inconsistency.  So it's perfectly permissible to do

 

  7   that in the Ninth Circuit.

 

  8             There are also instances under the Ninth

 

  9   Circuit rules where you can use unpublished

 

 10   opinions to establish a fact, as Judge Levi

 

 11   mentioned earlier.  So there are exceptions but

 

 12   obviously you have to be careful and you have to be

 

 13   right, but there are exceptions that allow you to

 

 14   address those kinds of concerns.

 

 15             MS. ALLEN:  I just say as I understand the

 

 16   exception that you just articulated about being

 

 17   allowed to cite them to show inconsistency for the

 

 18   purpose of en banc, that that's not the usage I

 

 19   think that I was being asked about over there.

 

 20             MR. LEVY:  That's right, and I don't know

 

 21   the answer, either.  You seem fairly confident in

 

 22   your proposition.

 

                                                               271

 

  1             MS. WALDRON:  I'd just point out that the

 

  2   AO does publish tables on reversal rates but I

 

  3   don't think that it's broken down between published

 

  4   and unpublished.  But you can go by circuit and

 

  5   find the reversal rates and then I guess you could

 

  6   run a Westlaw search on reported cases and see if

 

  7   there's a difference in the--

 

  8             JUDGE STEWART:  I don't know if the

 

  9   difference is meaningful in the sense that I think

 

 10   John was asking the question but unquestionably

 

 11   what you said would be true.  In my circuit, unlike

 

 12   some others, we have a rule that what's being

 

 13   called NPOs, you can't have a dissent in an NPO

 

 14   because definitionally within the culture is if

 

 15   we're going to do one without an opinion, it's

 

 16   going to be an affirmance.  If somebody dissents,

 

 17   you know, that's just another nuance.

 

 18             But the point is there's a cultural rule

 

 19   in the circuit I learned as a new judge and that is

 

 20   that we never reverse a district court in an

 

 21   unpublished opinion.  Part of it was explained to

 

 22   me that the respect for the district court and the

 

                                                               272

 

  1   district courts, if we want to reverse the district

 

  2   court, you do it in a published opinion with

 

  3   reasons explaining why and hopefully the exposition

 

  4   on the law will be helpful to other district judges

 

  5   that are sitting, whereas if we do an NPO, it might

 

  6   be a half page but it basically says affirm and a

 

  7   lot of ours will say we affirm for essentially the

 

  8   well written reasons of the district court, see

 

  9   district court's memorandum opinion.

 

 10             So the reasons articulated are the reasons

 

 11   of the district court in an affirmance but in a

 

 12   reversal, the practice would be to give reasons for

 

 13   the reversal because culturally then the district

 

 14   judges frown, which is probably a mild way of

 

 15   saying it, on being reversed in an unpublished

 

 16   notion.  It's the kind of notion that the court's

 

 17   hiding something or whatever the case may be.

 

 18             MS. ALLEN:  I just want to clarify that

 

 19   I'm not saying that the point here is that there

 

 20   are no reversals in summary judgments or even that

 

 21   there aren't a significant number.  The Ninth

 

 22   Circuit, I counted 15 reversals in a two-week

 

                                                               273

 

  1   period recently in uncitable opinions.  I think

 

  2   that raises another kind of a problem.

 

  3             JUDGE ALITO:  Any other questions?

 

  4             Thank you very much.

 

  5             MS. ALLEN:  Thank you.

 

  6             JUDGE ALITO:  John A. Taylor, Jr., Horvitz

 

  7   & Levy, chair of the California State Bar

 

  8   Association Appellate Courts Committee.

 

  9                 STATEMENT OF JOHN A. TAYLOR, JR.

 

 10             MR. TAYLOR:  Mr. Chairman, members of the

 

 11   committee, I wish to express my appreciation for

 

 12   being permitted to speak today and give this

 

 13   testimony.  I also appreciate all the patience

 

 14   which has been exhibited by the committee in

 

 15   hearing the various perspectives from a broad range

 

 16   of people affiliated with the appellate courts.

 

 17             I think today I hope to offer a

 

 18   perspective which I haven't heard yet, which is

 

 19   that of appellate practitioners who practice

 

 20   exclusively in the appellate courts.  I think I

 

 21   represent a group that's uniquely affected by the

 

 22   proposed rule.

 

                                                               274

 

  1             Just by way of personal background, I'm a

 

  2   California certified appellate specialist.  I've

 

  3   been handling appeals exclusively for the past

 

  4   decade.  I'm a partner in a firm which is sort of

 

  5   unique in the country, I think.  We only handle

 

  6   appeals.  We're California's largest civil

 

  7   appellate firm with approximately 30 lawyers doing

 

  8   that.

 

  9             And as was mentioned by the committee

 

 10   chair, I am chair of the California State Bar

 

 11   Appellate Courts Committee and a member of the Los

 

 12   Angeles County Bar Appellate Courts Committee.

 

 13   Both of these committees are comprised almost

 

 14   exclusively of appellate practitioners in civil,

 

 15   criminal, private and government practice, and the

 

 16   membership of both committees is overwhelmingly

 

 17   opposed to Rule 32.1.

 

 18             I'd just like to briefly address first the

 

 19   notion that there's some kind of campaign in the

 

 20   Ninth Circuit to round up opposition to Rule 32.1.

 

 21   Both committees I'm on routinely look at proposed

 

 22   rules and comment on them and we're already on

 

                                                               275

 

  1   record in opposition to previous attempts to amend

 

  2   the California rules of court to allow citation to

 

  3   unpublished decisions.  So we've had a consistent

 

  4   position on this issue.  It's not one that we've

 

  5   been more or less brought into a campaign on this

 

  6   particular rule.  I think it would be unfair to

 

  7   discount the independent opposition of

 

  8   practitioners on the ground that they're somehow

 

  9   under the control of the federal judiciary.

 

 10             I might ask then why are the vast majority

 

 11   of comments by appellate practitioners, at least

 

 12   from the Ninth  Circuit and I think probably across

 

 13   the board, why have they been in opposition to Rule

 

 14   32.1?  I think it's because it's in recognition

 

 15   that we practice in a real world.  We think in the

 

 16   ideal world all opinions would be crafted with

 

 17   utmost care but in the real world in which we

 

 18   practice we understand that that's not possible.

 

 19             I think Rule 32.1, from my perspective, is

 

 20   a solution that's in search of a problem.  I looked

 

 21   carefully at the committee note and I couldn't find

 

 22   a single serious problem in the note that I think

 

                                                               276

 

  1   the rule would resolve.  The main problem it seems

 

  2   that's identified by the rule is that there's some

 

  3   sort of hardship on attorneys to pick through the

 

  4   various citation rules of the different circuits

 

  5   but I note that under the proposed rule, courts

 

  6   would remain free to say what precedential value

 

  7   those unpublished decisions would have in their

 

  8   circuit and I think that this moves the hardship

 

  9   just from one level up to another.  Rather than

 

 10   having to decide what's citable in a particular

 

 11   circuit, you have to decide what is precedent in a

 

 12   particular circuit when you cite it.

 

 13             We heard earlier today from Mr. Best, who

 

 14   quoted from the American College of Trial Lawyers

 

 15   report about the different rules in the different

 

 16   circuits about what is precedent and what is not

 

 17   and in that report it actually says the circuits

 

 18   cannot even agree on the meaning of that central

 

 19   term "precedent."

 

 20             Well, if unpublished decisions are citable

 

 21   everywhere, you're going to have differing views in

 

 22   every circuit about what will be treated with

 

                                                               277

 

  1   precedential value and what won't.  And you can

 

  2   look to the Hangley report for the different rules

 

  3   now that exist with respect to citation and you're

 

  4   going to have those same exact problems with regard

 

  5   to what's given precedential value and trying to

 

  6   comb through those and figure them out when you're

 

  7   writing a brief will be just as difficult as

 

  8   figuring out what's citable, maybe even more so

 

  9   because right now the unpublished decisions

 

 10   actually when you print them off, most computer

 

 11   databases have a heading on them that explain what

 

 12   rule applies and where they can be cited.

 

 13             If this concern of lack of uniformity,

 

 14   which is mentioned in the rules, is the real

 

 15   problem here, I think it makes more sense to

 

 16   uniformly bar the citation of unpublished opinions

 

 17   rather than to make them all citable, which creates

 

 18   a whole new set of problems.

 

 19             There's also been this notion that

 

 20   allowing circuits to ban the citation of

 

 21   unpublished decisions somehow creates a secret body

 

 22   of law.  I think that's been addressed by other

 

                                                               278

 

  1   people who've testified about the fact that these

 

  2   opinions are all going to be available under the

 

  3   E-Government Act.  In my circuit they've always

 

  4   been available.  You can see them on Westlaw.

 

  5   They're discussed openly in the legal community,

 

  6   can be written about in law reviews.  Their legal

 

  7   analysis can be drawn upon in writing a brief.  So

 

  8   the idea that there's some secret body of law out

 

  9   there just doesn't hold water.

 

 10             Another objection has been that somehow

 

 11   these unpublished decisions are being used to hide

 

 12   departure from published precedent in particular

 

 13   cases and I think even though these are widely

 

 14   available for use, there haven't been any studies

 

 15   that show that, in fact, that is happening.  It's

 

 16   speculative.  Certainly in my committees we've

 

 17   discussed whether that's happening and no one on

 

 18   the committee has cited any example in any of their

 

 19   practice where that has occurred.

 

 20             And I note that in the Ninth Circuit now

 

 21   there is, as Mr. Svetcov mentioned, a safety valve

 

 22   which allows the citation of any conflicting

 

                                                               279

 

  1   unpublished decision in a petition for rehearing or

 

  2   a petition for rehearing en banc.  The judges

 

  3   who've reported on that rule and how it's been

 

  4   working reported that despite the fact that the

 

  5   rule's been in effect for two and a half years,

 

  6   almost no parties have been able to find

 

  7   unpublished decisions in conflict with the

 

  8   published decisions.

 

  9             I think a better solution than Rule 32.1,

 

 10   which to me is the tail wagging the dog, would be

 

 11   to do what Judge Wood suggested this morning, which

 

 12   is to create rules and standards governing when

 

 13   decisions have to be published.  I like what Judge

 

 14   Stewart had to say, that in his circuit if there's

 

 15   a dissent, that automatically becomes a published

 

 16   decision.  I think I saw in the comments the

 

 17   suggestion that perhaps the decision to publish

 

 18   could be reviewed separately by judges not on the

 

 19   panel that's deciding it.

 

 20             At any rate, there's a number of

 

 21   mechanisms that could be created to govern when

 

 22   decisions are published and when they're

 

                                                               280

 

  1   unpublished, which would, I think, solve a lot of

 

  2   the problems that exist out there without creating

 

  3   new problems, which Rule 32.1 creates.

 

  4             Let me just turn for a minute to assuming

 

  5   that Rule 32.1 has some benefits, what are the

 

  6   burdens that it would impose and are those burdens

 

  7   really worth the candle?  I think if it goes into

 

  8   effect there are three possible outcomes.  Judges

 

  9   will spend far more time crafting unpublished

 

 10   decisions, some judges will spend far less time

 

 11   drafting unpublished decisions, and some judges

 

 12   will not do anything differently, and there are

 

 13   adverse consequences under any of these three

 

 14   options.

 

 15             Scenario one sees judges spending more

 

 16   time drafting and polishing unpublished opinions

 

 17   because they're now citable.  This may be the

 

 18   outcome that some proponents of the rule would

 

 19   actually like to see, so I'll address it first.  I

 

 20   don't think there can be any debate that such a

 

 21   rule would create delay.  Judges would spend more

 

 22   time working up their unpublished decisions either

 

                                                               281

 

  1   to the detriment of the published decisions or

 

  2   simply slowing down the whole process.

 

  3             We heard Carter Phillips speak this

 

  4   morning of the impact that would have on his

 

  5   clients and I have to say that in my practice it is

 

  6   similar.  Litigants are forced to hold important

 

  7   business, career and personal life decisions in

 

  8   abeyance while they're waiting for appeals to be

 

  9   decided.  Delay can create unfair settlement

 

 10   leverage, forcing some litigants to settle claims

 

 11   for far less than they're worth while they wait for

 

 12   an appeal to be decided.

 

 13             And the quality of oral advocacy before

 

 14   the court declines as the time between briefing and

 

 15   argument expands and the intricacies of the record

 

 16   are forgotten and legal arguments grow stale.

 

 17             I've got a federal appeal I'm handling

 

 18   right now.  I just went into this settlement

 

 19   mediation program where we were told it would take

 

 20   two years to resolve the appeal if the case didn't

 

 21   settle.  The plaintiff in that case is earning 1.5

 

 22   percent interest on the judgment right now and

 

                                                               282

 

  1   that's an interesting contrast to California's

 

  2   state court cases, where there's a 10 percent

 

  3   statutory rate.  Right now with the 1.5 percent

 

  4   interest rate on a federal judgment, the defendant

 

  5   really has very little incentive to settle during

 

  6   that delay process.

 

  7             The second scenario is that judges spend a

 

  8   lot less time drafting unpublished decisions.  In

 

  9   the Ninth Circuit we've heard the term being used

 

 10   "mem dispos."  That applies where there's a

 

 11   one-paragraph or even a one-line disposition

 

 12   affirming or reversing the district court.

 

 13             I think we heard Professor Barnett asking

 

 14   where's the barking dog in this situation and maybe

 

 15   the barking dog is that in the circuits that permit

 

 16   liberal citation of unpublished decisions, those

 

 17   are the circuits that are most recently making use

 

 18   of one-line dispositions.

 

 19             I think it's ironic that some proponents

 

 20   of the rule actually suggest that limiting

 

 21   unpublished decisions to one or two issues or

 

 22   simply stating the result will answer many of the

 

                                                               283

 

  1   objections to the rule.  Increased use of mem

 

  2   dispos is one of the best arguments against the

 

  3   rule, since their expanded use would be a great

 

  4   disservice to the bar and their clients.

 

  5              The reason is that these short, one-line

 

  6   dispositions are extremely demoralizing to both

 

  7   lawyers and their clients.  I know in my practice

 

  8   after devoting many months of reading the record,

 

  9   researching and writing the briefs, to get back a

 

 10   one- or two-paragraph decision that really doesn't

 

 11   address most of the issues in the appeal is

 

 12   extremely demoralizing and it creates a very

 

 13   difficult situation in trying to explain to a

 

 14   client why their arguments weren't heard or

 

 15   considered and what the reason was for the result.

 

 16   It may also create difficulties in trying to

 

 17   explain to the client what they should change in

 

 18   their practice to avoid future liability.

 

 19             In the record there's the letter from

 

 20   Maria Stratton, who's a federal public defender,

 

 21   and I really encourage members of the committee to

 

 22   read that because it explains from the criminal law

 

                                                               284

 

  1   perspective what effect these one-line dispositions

 

  2   have on her clients who may be sitting in

 

  3   incarceration waiting to hear what the result is of

 

  4   their appeal and to get a simple affirmed or

 

  5   reversed makes them feel like they have really been

 

  6   a victim of the justice system, which hasn't

 

  7   considered their arguments in full.

 

  8             In that sense, these one-line dispositions

 

  9   really undermine the public's perception of justice

 

 10   I think to a much greater percentage than the fact

 

 11   that we have unpublished decisions does now.

 

 12             Other detriments from that also would be

 

 13   the fact that it's difficult to seek rehearing or

 

 14   en banc review or even Supreme Court review in

 

 15   those situations where there is simple affirmance

 

 16   or reversal because it's difficult to explain where

 

 17   the court went wrong in seeking review.

 

 18             Also, I think it provides little guidance

 

 19   to the lower courts when they get an unpublished

 

 20   one-line disposition.  They can't correct the

 

 21   mistakes that they made if they don't know the

 

 22   reasons they were right or wrong when they made a

 

                                                               285

 

  1   particular decision.

 

  2             Finally, the last scenario would be that

 

  3   judges do nothing different except that

 

  4   nonpublished decisions become citable and I think

 

  5   that the problem there, at least in the Ninth

 

  6   Circuit, is that there's just so much law.  It's

 

  7   difficult enough for the judges there to craft a

 

  8   seamless web of precedent without asking them to

 

  9   weave in every single stray bit of litigation that

 

 10   comes to the courthouse door.

 

 11             Since less time goes into writing

 

 12   unpublished decisions, they're going to introduce

 

 13   into the law many ambiguous and potentially

 

 14   misleading statements that will be touted as the

 

 15   law of the circuit.

 

 16             Where they contain no statement of the

 

 17   case or only a cursory one, it's difficult to

 

 18   distinguish those cases in a factual context in

 

 19   which they shouldn't properly apply and I think at

 

 20   the district court level that encourages the use of

 

 21   string citations.  How many unpublished decisions

 

 22   on one side of a discretionary ruling versus how

 

                                                               286

 

  1   many on the other can the parties throw at the

 

  2   court?

 

  3             Also, the use of the felicitous-sounding

 

  4   phrase, which may be inapposite in the particular

 

  5   case in which it's being cited but you can't tell

 

  6   because the unpublished decision has no statement

 

  7   of facts on which it could be distinguished.

 

  8             In all, I think that unpublished decisions

 

  9   will have a greater effect in these lower court

 

 10   proceedings than they will in appeals because, as

 

 11   we've heard, appellate courts know how to deal with

 

 12   unpublished decisions from their own court but in

 

 13   the lower courts they're going to be  harder

 

 14   pressed, I think district court judges, to ignore

 

 15   these unpublished decisions when they're thrown at

 

 16   them and they're told this is what the court of

 

 17   appeals did in this particular case in the past and

 

 18   this is what you should do, also, even though

 

 19   there's no factual setting for the particular point

 

 20   of law.

 

 21             Finally, this propose rule will impose new

 

 22   research burdens on attorneys that won't outweigh

 

                                                               287

 

  1   the benefits.  I know in the Ninth Circuit I've

 

  2   rarely encountered a situation where there wasn't

 

  3   enough law on the subject.  I think in maybe one

 

  4   case I can remember in my practice where there was

 

  5   an unpublished decision which I wanted to cite and

 

  6   couldn't.  And I think for a practicing lawyer,

 

  7   expanding the volume of cases to research fivefold,

 

  8   especially where the newly cited cases have not

 

  9   been written for publication and where there are

 

 10   very few diamonds, if any, hidden in the coal bin,

 

 11   threatens not to clarify the law but to cloud it

 

 12   with nuances, distinctions and variations and to

 

 13   make practice in the Ninth Circuit where I practice

 

 14   much more difficult.

 

 15             Right now only 20 percent of the cases are

 

 16   currently published.  Where unpublished decision

 

 17   can be cited, as a matter of prudence and

 

 18   professional ethics, we'll have to treat them as a

 

 19   significant source of authority.  We'll have to

 

 20   look for them.  If we don't, we'll be considered

 

 21   sloppy and potentially even victims of claims of

 

 22   malpractice where we haven't searched unpublished

 

                                                               288

 

  1   decisions for those that are perhaps more closely

 

  2   in factually aligned context than the published

 

  3   decisions on point which have maybe more nuanced

 

  4   language which we can use, or even to find out what

 

  5   our opponents are going to be throwing at us in the

 

  6   opposing brief.

 

  7             This is a particularly difficult situation

 

  8   when the issue is one of a discretionary ruling.  I

 

  9   recently have been handling a juror misconduct case

 

 10   and this is a state court case but I think it's

 

 11   analogous to what one might experience doing

 

 12   research in the federal context.  For every one

 

 13   juror misconduct case there are probably nine or 10

 

 14   which are unpublished and when you're doing

 

 15   research in that area, what you're really looking

 

 16   for is cases which discuss a factual situation

 

 17   similar to yours, rather than simply for the law

 

 18   that applies in that case, so simply throwing at

 

 19   the court different factual contexts in which juror

 

 20   misconduct came up.

 

 21             I spent probably two weeks looking at the

 

 22   published cases.  If that had to expand tenfold to

 

                                                               289

 

  1   look at every unpublished juror misconduct case, I

 

  2   simply could not have met the time to get my brief

 

  3   on file.

 

  4             Finally, I'd just like to address the

 

  5   point that perhaps this rule should be postponed

 

  6   for further study.  As I understand it, the

 

  7   national rulemaking process generally works on a

 

  8   consensus or near-consensus basis and based on my

 

  9   review of the comments, which I think should

 

 10   overwhelming opposition to Rule 32.1, it seems

 

 11   unlikely that postponement will result in any

 

 12   consensus-building, rather than further

 

 13   polarization on this issue.

 

 14             I look to California where we've had year

 

 15   after year a couple of vocal proponents who want to

 

 16   make all decisions, all unpublished decisions

 

 17   citable, go to a different legislator every year to

 

 18   try to get a bill passed to get their way on this

 

 19   particular issue and it's resulted in year after

 

 20   year uncertainty in the law in this area and a

 

 21   tremendous waste of resources by the judiciary and

 

 22   appellate bar as they have to gear up year after

 

                                                               290

 

  1   year to consider this issue.  I think I would urge

 

  2   the committee to put it to rest and not to pass

 

  3   Rule 32.1 on to the next level.

 

  4             JUDGE ALITO:  Thank you.

 

  5             Any questions?

 

  6             JUDGE STEWART:  I have one.  I've tried to

 

  7   listen earnestly to the unique perspective in terms

 

  8   of the impact that this rule might have on

 

  9   appellate practice and I'd have to tell you I

 

 10   missed it because most of what you cited in the

 

 11   letter are similar to other things that we've

 

 12   heard.

 

 13             For example, when you talk about the cases

 

 14   pending for two years, I just can't imagine you're

 

 15   going to get an NPO in the case you described, a

 

 16   big case like that, that you're going to get an

 

 17   unpublished decision, so I don't understand how

 

 18   that example fits what we're talking about.  If

 

 19   it's pending two years and you have what's at

 

 20   stake, I just can't imagine you're going to get a

 

 21   three-liner at the end of the two years addressing

 

 22   that case.  So I don't see how saying that's

 

                                                               291

 

  1   pending really informs the position you're taking

 

  2   about an unpublished opinion.  I mean there's just

 

  3   no doubt in my mind that if it doesn't settle

 

  4   you're going to get an opinion whether you win or

 

  5   lose.

 

  6             Secondly, I don't follow if you get a

 

  7   one-liner that says affirmed, you're appellate

 

  8   counsel and I'm just not following that you and

 

  9   your client are going to go and sit down and parse

 

 10   the fact that the court of appeals didn't give you

 

 11   a long written opinion explaining how you won.  In

 

 12   other words that you aren't overjoyed that you won

 

 13   with one word or more but that you're going to, you

 

 14   know, go and parse the fact that you've been

 

 15   deprived of a long opinion explaining how you won.

 

 16   I just don't see that as realistic.

 

 17             Now following the flip side, yes, the

 

 18   prisoner is unhappy that in two pages the district

 

 19   court was affirmed, but as much prisoner litigation

 

 20   as we did, if we wrote 30 pages and published it

 

 21   we've got the same pro se litigation coming to us.

 

 22             So I have a disconnect between some of the

 

                                                               292

 

  1   things that you're asserting here and the rule

 

  2   that's before us, not minimizing the opposition but

 

  3   just help me connect how in the appellate practice

 

  4   that you come from what in this rule so impacts on

 

  5   your ability, taking the case perhaps where you

 

  6   didn't try the case originally and so forth, that's

 

  7   the part that I'm not connecting.

 

  8             MR. TAYLOR:  I think the first question

 

  9   was in the two-year example, how would an NPO or an

 

 10   unpublished decision affect my client?  My point

 

 11   really was we're already waiting two years.  As the

 

 12   Ninth Circuit is right now, with positions on the

 

 13   Ninth Circuit that haven't been filled by the

 

 14   Congress, the Senate--

 

 15             JUDGE STEWART:  You're talking about

 

 16   delays?

 

 17             MR. TAYLOR:  Right.  I'm saying if that

 

 18   process has to be extended even further because the

 

 19   judges--

 

 20             JUDGE STEWART:  Well, what's the evidence

 

 21   of that?  See that's my problem.  It's conclusory.

 

 22   You were here and you heard Judge Becker say in his

 

                                                               293

 

  1   experience on the Third Circuit those are the

 

  2   fastest dispositions that get out the door because

 

  3   they're decided after the case is argued and in

 

  4   chambers.  They're out the door.

 

  5             So I'm interested in why is it in those

 

  6   circuits that allow citation that dispositions seem

 

  7   to go out quicker.  So why is it that that event is

 

  8   going to retard the resolution of your two-year-old

 

  9   case, other than that being a surmise that you're

 

 10   making but I'm saying nobody in these comments

 

 11   cites that.  No district judges wrote letters

 

 12   saying that it's going to slow the process.

 

 13             MR. TAYLOR:  I think first of all, it's

 

 14   dangerous to transport what's happening in the

 

 15   Third District to the Ninth Circuit, which is much

 

 16   different and very unique.  I think overwhelmingly,

 

 17   there were comments from the Ninth Circuit judges

 

 18   saying if we're forced to allow these decisions to

 

 19   be published we're going to have to put a lot more

 

 20   time into writing them and that time writing those

 

 21   decisions, doing polishing, whatever they feel

 

 22   needs to be done so that they're out there in a

 

                                                               294

 

  1   citable form, is going to either take away from the

 

  2   work they do on their published work or it's going

 

  3   to delay it.  And I think we're heard the judiciary

 

  4   is not going to allow their published work, their

 

  5   published decisions to suffer, and what will happen

 

  6   is the delay will come in delaying the result or

 

  7   the decision-making in all cases, so that rather

 

  8   than having a two-year delay, which we have now,

 

  9   we'll see two and a half, three, three and a half

 

 10   years to get a decision in the case I'm talking

 

 11   about.

 

 12             Whether it comes in an unpublished

 

 13   decision or whether it's a published decision, it's

 

 14   going to slow down the decision-making process in

 

 15   all cases and that was really my point, how my

 

 16   clients as an appellate practitioner will be

 

 17   uniquely affected by this rule because they're

 

 18   already waiting a long time for decisions and the

 

 19   delay will cause even further problems in that.

 

 20             I think we've seen letters in the comments

 

 21   from companies like Verizon and others who have

 

 22   cases in the Ninth Circuit who don't want further

 

                                                               295

 

  1   delays in their cases that are before the Ninth

 

  2   Circuit.

 

  3             And I'm sorry I've forgotten the second

 

  4   part of your question--

 

  5             JUDGE STEWART:  That's all right.  You did

 

  6   well.

 

  7             MR. LETTER:  I just have a couple of brief

 

  8   observations.  You started by saying it would just

 

  9   change the difficulty that national practitioners

 

 10   have, from trying to figure our citations to trying

 

 11   to figure out what's precedent.  The difference is,

 

 12   as we know, you can be sanctioned for guessing

 

 13   wrong on whether you can cite something or not.

 

 14   You're not going to be sanctioned if you cite an

 

 15   unpublished opinion and it turns out not to be

 

 16   binding law of the circuit.

 

 17             MR. TAYLOR:  Well, has there ever been

 

 18   anybody sanctioned?  I think there were two cases

 

 19   in which people were threatened with sanctions in

 

 20   the Ninth Circuit but have we had examples of

 

 21   people actually sanctioned?

 

 22             MR. LETTER:  Yes.  Yes.

 

                                                               296

 

  1             JUDGE ROBERTS:  How much were you charged?

 

  2             MR. LETTER:  It was the D.C. Circuit,

 

  3   Judge Roberts.  The government paid for it.

 

  4             Second, the point about the motions to

 

  5   publish, I don't think that that really is a

 

  6   solution because, for example, in the D.C. Circuit,

 

  7   unlike the Ninth Circuit, you don't have two years

 

  8   between briefing and oral argument.  The D.C.

 

  9   Circuit sets it up so that the briefs are finished

 

 10   and then oral argument is almost immediately

 

 11   thereafter.

 

 12             So if you come across some of these cases

 

 13   let's say a week or so before your brief is due,

 

 14   there isn't time to do a motion to have that

 

 15   decision published and then be able to cite it,

 

 16   unless the D.C. Circuit is going to act on these

 

 17   immediately, which I doubt they're going to do

 

 18   because presumably, as Judge Wood said, they're

 

 19   going to get it to the original panel, which by the

 

 20   way might include visiting judges, et cetera.

 

 21             So I don't think in some circuits like the

 

 22   Ninth maybe this is a solution because they've got

 

                                                               297

 

  1   that up to two-year gap between briefing and

 

  2   argument but I think in a lot of the other

 

  3   circuits, like the Third, the Seventh actually

 

  4   which is quite fast, I don't think this is a

 

  5   practical solution.

 

  6             MR. TAYLOR:  My proposal really was more

 

  7   front-loaded than that, which is to create

 

  8   standards about when decisions must be published so

 

  9   that we don't end up with the situation of a

 

 10   decision with a dissent but which then is an

 

 11   unpublished decision.

 

 12             MR. LETTER:  That was going to be my next

 

 13   point.  I think that misunderstands.  I'm not

 

 14   trying to get more opinions published.  That's not

 

 15   my goal at all.  I think the courts do a very good

 

 16   job in general of deciding what is to be published

 

 17   and what isn't.  As I mentioned before, I had the

 

 18   situation where the court that I was in had four

 

 19   orders dismissing interlocutory appeals.  It

 

 20   probably didn't need a published opinion.  I don't

 

 21   know; maybe they could have.  I just wanted to be

 

 22   able to tell the court about those four orders in

 

                                                               298

 

  1   the past two years and there wasn't really anything

 

  2   worth publishing probably.  Maybe the court could

 

  3   have published it but I just wanted to be able to

 

  4   cite that.

 

  5             I didn't want them to publish something

 

  6   and make it law of the circuit.  That wasn't the

 

  7   goal.  I just wanted to let them know about this

 

  8   recent practice.

 

  9             And the last thing is--

 

 10             MR. TAYLOR:  If I could just respond to

 

 11   that real quick, in the Ninth Circuit you could use

 

 12   the reasoning from those opinions, if there were

 

 13   any.  Even if there weren't, if the court ended up

 

 14   reaching a decision contrary to those past four

 

 15   cases, you could then call it to their attention in

 

 16   a petition for rehearing.

 

 17             MR. LETTER:  Again I'm not trying to get

 

 18   rehearing.  The government seeks rehearing in a

 

 19   tiny percentage of our cases.  We try to work with

 

 20   the courts.  Unlike private practitioners who seek

 

 21   rehearing often, we seek rehearing in a tiny

 

 22   percentage of the cases, so that's not what I'm

 

                                                               299

 

  1   trying to do, either.  I'm just trying to tell the

 

  2   court look, here's what your colleagues have done

 

  3   four times in the last couple of years.

 

  4             And the last thing, you said on citations

 

  5   to the district courts, Sandy tells me that the

 

  6   Ninth Circuit attempts to tell the district courts

 

  7   that lawyers can't cite Ninth Circuit unpublished

 

  8   decisions in the district court.  But again you

 

  9   said you do an appellate practice.  If you look at

 

 10   district court practice around the United States,

 

 11   district court briefs over and over cite

 

 12   unpublished court of appeals opinions.

 

 13             So the practice has moved beyond, I think,

 

 14   what you're saying.  These decisions are cited.

 

 15   They're cited all the time.  So if judges are

 

 16   acting as if they're not going to be cited, as I

 

 17   say, the practice has moved beyond them.  All that

 

 18   they can do is say don't cite it in my court or

 

 19   maybe don't cite it in my district courts, but they

 

 20   can't say don't cite it because that is happening.

 

 21             MR. TAYLOR:  I would respond that just

 

 22   because something bad has happened doesn't mean we

 

                                                               300

 

  1   should encourage it further.  And I think the fact

 

  2   that these unpublished decisions are being used in

 

  3   the district court is misleading.  It's probably

 

  4   making bad law and to the extent we can cut back on

 

  5   it then it probably should be cut back, not

 

  6   encouraged.

 

  7             MR. LETTER:  But then the only way to cut

 

  8   back on it is the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure

 

  9   would be amended to say that nobody can cite in any

 

 10   district court in the United States an unpublished

 

 11   court of appeals opinion.  I suppose you could do

 

 12   that.

 

 13             MR. TAYLOR:  If you wanted to create

 

 14   uniformity, but I would say let's leave it to the

 

 15   individual circuits and the Ninth Circuit can

 

 16   manage what's cited in the district courts to the

 

 17   extent it can.  If people are violating those

 

 18   rules, let the Ninth Circuit deal with it.

 

 19             MR. LETTER:  They're not violating it.

 

 20   That's what I'm saying.  It's not a violation of--

 

 21             MR. TAYLOR:  Well, I think it is.  I think

 

 22   what Sandy said is it is a violation.

 

                                                               301

 

  1             MR. LETTER:  No, no, no.  To cite it in a

 

  2   district court in Alabama.  That's not a violation

 

  3   of the Ninth Circuit's rules.  It obviously can't

 

  4   be.  The Ninth Circuit can't set rules for Alabama.

 

  5             MR. TAYLOR:  The Ninth Circuit's not

 

  6   trying to control its precedents' use outside the

 

  7   circuit, only within the circuit, but in its own

 

  8   district courts it tells attorneys, "Don't cite

 

  9   these cases in our district courts in the Ninth

 

 10   Circuit," but I understand.

 

 11             JUDGE ALITO:  Judge Levi?

 

 12             JUDGE LEVI:  We both practice in the same

 

 13   circuit.  You seem well pleased with what I will

 

 14   call the discursive Ninth Circuit unpublished

 

 15   opinion and I want to ask you--

 

 16             MR. TAYLOR:  Not well pleased but it's

 

 17   better than a one-word disposition.

 

 18             JUDGE LEVI:  Well, we say one word but you

 

 19   also said two paragraphs, so let me ask you just

 

 20   about two areas here because they're recurring and

 

 21   everybody's heard about this.

 

 22             The first is our colleagues in the Ninth

 

                                                               302

 

  1   Circuit say that these discursive Ninth Circuit

 

  2   unpublished opinions are actually written by law

 

  3   clerks and that the panel puts very little input

 

  4   into it and that the opinion itself is not a good

 

  5   guide for the reasoning process of any single

 

  6   member of that panel.

 

  7             How do you get comfort with your client

 

  8   when you have one of these discursive let's say

 

  9   five- to 10-page unpublished opinions now that you

 

 10   know from reading these comments that this does not

 

 11   reflect the thinking of the panel but rather, the

 

 12   thinking of a law clerk and the panel is simply

 

 13   comfortable with the outcome?  That's my first

 

 14   question.

 

 15             My second question is--

 

 16             MR. TAYLOR:  I might forget it if--

 

 17             JUDGE LEVI:  Go ahead.

 

 18             MR. TAYLOR:  I think there are some judges

 

 19   who have made those statements.  I'm not sure I

 

 20   take at total face value that we never look at the

 

 21   reasoning; we just sign off on the bottom line and

 

 22   whatever it says is what it says.  I have to

 

                                                               303

 

  1   believe that in having been a law clerk myself, the

 

  2   fact that somebody has gone through the discipline

 

  3   of looking at the briefs, addressing the arguments,

 

  4   writing them up has brought some kind of reasoning

 

  5   and discipline to the process, rather than simply

 

  6   getting a one-word affirmed or reversed because

 

  7   when I was a work sometimes we'd read the briefs,

 

  8   we'd say yeah, the result should probably be X, and

 

  9   the judge would say okay, write it up.  And by the

 

 10   end of writing it up there were times when I went

 

 11   to the judge and said, "No, after looking at the

 

 12   cases and trying to write this up, it won't write.

 

 13   It's got to be Y" and then we go forward from

 

 14   there.

 

 15             I think that there is a benefit, even if

 

 16   it doesn't reflect totally the views of all three

 

 17   panel members, in having somebody, whether it's a

 

 18   research attorney or a law clerk or a staff

 

 19   attorney, having looked at the briefs and having

 

 20   written up the arguments and having given a reason

 

 21   to the parties that is beneficial, that you would

 

 22   lose if judges moved to affirmed or reversed as the

 

                                                               304

 

  1   result.

 

  2             JUDGE LEVI:  I think you've just given us

 

  3   an example of entropy in the rules process because

 

  4   you made the argument for unpublished opinions that

 

  5   is the argument that has been made for published,

 

  6   for having these opinions be citable.

 

  7             MR. TAYLOR:  Some of these arguments do

 

  8   cut--

 

  9             JUDGE LEVI:  They probably do.

 

 10             MR. TAYLOR:  It's like those who say we

 

 11   should have this rule because a one-word

 

 12   disposition would be better than a three-page or

 

 13   three-paragraph disposition and let's force judges

 

 14   to either write a fully citable decision or let's

 

 15   force them to just give an affirmed or reversed.  I

 

 16   think that's an argument against the rule where

 

 17   some would say that's an argument before it.

 

 18             JUDGE LEVI:  Just on that, the Ninth

 

 19   Circuit rule says that this should be for an

 

 20   unpublished opinion a routine application of

 

 21   clearly established circuit law and you're not

 

 22   happy with the two-paragraph or three-paragraph

 

                                                               305

 

  1   ruling but the example that the Ninth Circuit gives

 

  2   in its rules is a one-sentence statement that the

 

  3   defendant's statements are not subject to exclusion

 

  4   under the X case and maybe if you'd make 10

 

  5   arguments you'd have 10 sentences like that but

 

  6   what's the matter with that?  That is the circuit's

 

  7   own view of what its opinion should be.

 

  8             I think the difficulty we're getting into

 

  9   is that nobody would cite to an opinion like that.

 

 10   Nobody would want to.  It's this discursive

 

 11   unpublished opinion that you've been defending,

 

 12   that's where the rub is and yet that's not what's

 

 13   even contemplated by the local rule.

 

 14             MR. TAYLOR:  And my response would be that

 

 15   if this rule goes into effect, knowing we'll have

 

 16   more of these one-line dispositions which nobody

 

 17   likes, we'll have fewer of the discursive ones,

 

 18   which aren't great; let me tell you.  We'd much

 

 19   rather have a fully reasoned published opinion in

 

 20   any appeal that I've been working on.  I'd be much

 

 21   happier with that.  But the three-paragraph or even

 

 22   two-page opinion is better than nothing, better

 

                                                               306

 

  1   than a one-line disposition.

 

  2             And I say if you're going to create a rule

 

  3   which encourages the judges not even to give you

 

  4   the three-paragraph or the two-page opinion but

 

  5   just the one-line opinion, that's a detriment to

 

  6   the practice of law in the Ninth Circuit.  That's

 

  7   demoralizing to the attorneys and it's demoralizing

 

  8   to clients.

 

  9             Yeah, I'm not thrilled to have a

 

 10   three-paragraph opinion when I've written a 50-page

 

 11   brief but it's better than a one-line opinion,

 

 12   which is I think what you'll see more and more of

 

 13   if the rule goes into effect.

 

 14             MR. LEVY:  Mr. Taylor, you cited I think

 

 15   favorably, as Sandy did, the Ninth Circuit rule

 

 16   that nonprecedential opinions can be cited in

 

 17   requests for rehearing or rehearing en banc.  Can

 

 18   you explain to me what the logic is for allowing

 

 19   that but not allowing citations in the brief that

 

 20   would keep the panel from wandering into conflict

 

 21   and error in the first place?

 

 22             MR. TAYLOR:  I think the reason is because

 

                                                               307

 

  1   they don't want to be buried with these string

 

  2   citations to unpublished decisions but they want

 

  3   also to provide a safety valve which ensures that

 

  4   an injustice is not occurring because some of these

 

  5   decisions remain unpublished.

 

  6             MR. LEVY:  Isn't that really sandbagging

 

  7   of the highest order to allow a panel to write a

 

  8   decision and then later tell them, by the way,

 

  9   there's something--

 

 10             MR. TAYLOR:  No, because you can give them

 

 11   all the reasons for why it should go one way and if

 

 12   they don't end up buying those reasons and they

 

 13   actually write a decision that's in conflict with

 

 14   something another panel has said, then you call it

 

 15   to their attention and say, you know, you didn't

 

 16   buy our arguments but look, somebody else did and

 

 17   now there's a conflict you need to resolve, and you

 

 18   do that in a petition for rehearing.

 

 19             MR. SVETCOV:  I'm on that rules committee,

 

 20   too, so I know how this happened.  The pressure

 

 21   from the bar that wanted this rule, 32.1

 

 22   nationally, there was a bar in the Ninth Circuit

 

                                                               308

 

  1   that wanted a publication rule.  The Ninth Circuit

 

  2   Rules Committee said no.  This was the foot in the

 

  3   door for broader citation.  In effect, the circuit

 

  4   folded its tent and said okay, if consistency's a

 

  5   problem, we'll let you cite it for rehearing.

 

  6             Two-and-a-half-year experience, as Judge

 

  7   Levi--not one instance of a conflict raised through

 

  8   unpublished opinions.  In other words, it was the

 

  9   pressure for 32.1 in the Ninth Circuit that made

 

 10   this silly rule part of an exception to our rule

 

 11   against nonpublication.

 

 12             MR. TAYLOR:  But supposedly it was going

 

 13   to show that, in fact, all these conflicts were

 

 14   occurring and therefore we should be able to cite

 

 15   unpublished opinions.  And in fact, after two years

 

 16   of this experiment it showed exactly the opposite.

 

 17             MR. SVETCOV:  I can remember Judge

 

 18   Kozinski having smoke come out of his ears when the

 

 19   court agreed to this experiment and now is touting

 

 20   its inability to show anything as another argument

 

 21   in support of his position.

 

 22             MR. LEVY:  This was the organized pressure

 

                                                               309

 

  1   of the Ninth Circuit bar, of which we've heard no--

 

  2             MR. SVETCOV:  You know, when you tilt at

 

  3   windmills in our circuit too many times--

 

  4             JUDGE ALITO:  That result is

 

  5   incomprehensible to me because every single

 

  6   precedential opinion that I've ever written, I

 

  7   think, has generated a petition for rehearing en

 

  8   banc, each of which can cite at least a dozen

 

  9   Supreme Court cases and two dozen Third Circuit

 

 10   cases that my decision conflicts with.  You mean to

 

 11   say nobody in all this time in the Ninth Circuit

 

 12   has ever found an unpublished opinion that

 

 13   conflicts with--

 

 14             MR. SVETCOV:  That at least has some

 

 15   empirical basis.

 

 16             MR. TAYLOR:  It shows that what these

 

 17   things contain is not of much importance.

 

 18             MR. SVETCOV:  Here's how the components of

 

 19   those who think it's a good rule say well, give it

 

 20   another two and a half years.  Surely in another

 

 21   two and a half years we'll find one.

 

 22             JUDGE ALITO:  Mr. Taylor, unless there are

 

                                                               310

 

  1   other questions--

 

  2             MR. McGOUGH:  My understanding is that in

 

  3   the Ninth Circuit the unpublished or

 

  4   nonprecedential opinions, that that function is

 

  5   highly centralized in the staff attorneys office,

 

  6   as opposed to some of the other models.  I was

 

  7   hearing Judge Wood and I understand that may be the

 

  8   case in the Seventh Circuit, as well, but Judge

 

  9   Becker in the Third Circuit and in the Federal

 

 10   Circuit, the nonpublished opinions are written in

 

 11   chambers by the individual judges.

 

 12             MR. SVETCOV:  And I think in the Ninth

 

 13   Circuit that's also true and I know of my own

 

 14   experience in criminal cases--

 

 15             MR. McGOUGH:  Which is also--

 

 16             MR. SVETCOV:  And also in securities cases

 

 17   as a plaintiff's lawyer, there are lots of

 

 18   unpublished affirmances of private Securities Act

 

 19   cases that were dismissed in the district court and

 

 20   are affirmed in unpublished opinions, thankfully,

 

 21   because if I have any more adverse precedents in

 

 22   securities cases in my circuit I'd really be

 

                                                               311

 

  1   rolling upstream.

 

  2             MR. McGOUGH:  But my question is really

 

  3   while we've got at least one Ninth Circuit

 

  4   practitioner and we haven't had any of the judges

 

  5   here from the Ninth Circuit, are the unpublished

 

  6   opinions coming out of the staff attorneys office,

 

  7   is it centralized in general?

 

  8             MR. SVETCOV:  Some are.

 

  9             MR. McGOUGH:  Or are any coming out of the

 

 10   chambers?

 

 11             MR. TAYLOR:  I think both.  They screen

 

 12   the cases and some get diverted off to the staff

 

 13   attorneys and some go to chambers and maybe some of

 

 14   the ones that go to chambers after they've looked

 

 15   at the brief, they decide this isn't worthy of a

 

 16   published opinion and they'll issue a nonpub,

 

 17   versus the staff attorneys cases, which can come up

 

 18   through a different route.  So you're getting two

 

 19   different--

 

 20             MR. McGOUGH:  Does it make a difference?

 

 21   In the Ninth Circuit is there any perceived

 

 22   difference between whether the opinion's coming out

 

                                                               312

 

  1   of the staff attorney's office versus the opinions

 

  2   coming out of chambers?

 

  3             MR. SVETCOV:  What difference are you

 

  4   looking for, Tom?  I'm not understanding.

 

  5             MR. McGOUGH:  Either quality, consistency.

 

  6   I could see, for example, where an argument could

 

  7   be made that the staff attorneys office, the

 

  8   quality is lower but the consistency is high and

 

  9   coming out of chambers the consistency is lower but

 

 10   the quality is higher.  I don't know.  Or you could

 

 11   flip it around the other way.

 

 12             MR. SVETCOV:  I'm trying to--my own

 

 13   experience is that I've had unpublished decisions

 

 14   in my cases that went to chambers and were orally

 

 15   argued and were still mem dispo'd on occasion and

 

 16   they were written "The parties are familiar with

 

 17   the facts" and sometimes the analysis is, you know,

 

 18   three pages, sometimes eight pages.

 

 19             And I think that the screening decisions

 

 20   that the staff attorneys have are very often

 

 21   one-issue cases.  They're qualitatively different

 

 22   cases.

 

                                                               313

 

  1             MR. McGOUGH:  Is the level of judicial

 

  2   input perceived to be the same?

 

  3             MR. SVETCOV:  No.  I know that it's not

 

  4   the same.  Those screening cases are presented 30

 

  5   at a time to a panel of three judges and they read

 

  6   the memo dispos and if they read the summary of

 

  7   argument, I would be delighted to hear that.  And

 

  8   if one of the three judges says whoops, there's

 

  9   something more to this, then it goes off that

 

 10   screening calendar.  If the three judges sign on,

 

 11   then the staff attorney disposition goes out.

 

 12             JUDGE ALITO:  Thank you, Mr. Taylor.

 

 13             Steven I. Wallach, Morrison Cohen Singer &

 

 14   Weinstein, New York.

 

 15                  STATEMENT OF STEVEN I. WALLACH

 

 16             MR. WALLACH:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

 

 17             Mr. Reporter, Mr. Secretary, members of

 

 18   the committee, thanks a thousand times for your

 

 19   patience.  I apologize ahead of time if I'm too

 

 20   duplicative.  Alas, that's sometimes unavoidable.

 

 21             I'm a patent lawyer.  With all due respect

 

 22   to Judge Bright, who we heard a century ago this

 

                                                               314

 

  1   morning, the system is broke in a small but

 

  2   fundamental way.  Advocates cannot cite decisions

 

  3   for their persuasive value that may be very

 

  4   relevant to the very issue that's pending before a

 

  5   court and it is fundamental because the courts of

 

  6   appeals are, in part, here to help guide the

 

  7   district courts and the public as to what the law

 

  8   is and what the outcomes should be in particular

 

  9   cases.

 

 10             Now I do want to address very real-world

 

 11   concerns.  Of course as lawyers, we all know

 

 12   hypotheticals are sometimes useful for that so

 

 13   let's say we have an inventor, H.D. Thoreau, who

 

 14   has a patent on a new mousetrap and he's suing Tom

 

 15   Katz, my client, who's allegedly infringing this

 

 16   patent for making, using and selling mousetraps.

 

 17   Let's say that I file a summary judgment motion of

 

 18   noninfringements and I win.

 

 19             The case goes up to the Court of Appeals

 

 20   for the Federal Circuit, which reviews the very

 

 21   important issue of claim construction, what is a

 

 22   very central issue in most patent cases about what

 

                                                               315

 

  1   a patent means.  The Court of Appeals for the

 

  2   Federal Circuit reverses and remands.

 

  3             Now Mr. Thoreau files a motion for summary

 

  4   judgment that his patent is valid and infringed.

 

  5   In opposing that motion I say well, we have a good

 

  6   deal of prior art, publicly available information

 

  7   that shows that the patent is invalid and that the

 

  8   court should consider in deciding on the motion for

 

  9   summary judgment.  And let's say Mr. Thoreau argues

 

 10   well, Mr. District Court Judge, you don't have to

 

 11   consider the issue of validity of the prior art

 

 12   because the Federal Circuit would not have said

 

 13   what it said about claim construction if it thought

 

 14   the patent was invalid.

 

 15             Now what does this mean practically?  Now

 

 16   I'm going to do some research and see if this

 

 17   argument holds water and I'm going to do research,

 

 18   as I do in any case.  We're going to have someone

 

 19   look at what the courts have said on this issue and

 

 20   maybe we will find an unpublished decision.  We

 

 21   will find a case called Xerox Corp. versus 3Com

 

 22   Corp. in which the very same procedural issue came

 

                                                               316

 

  1   up.  It was on remand from the Federal Circuit.  A

 

  2   district court said it was not going to listen to

 

  3   the issue of invalidity because of course the

 

  4   Federal Circuit would not have ruled on claim

 

  5   construction as it did if it thought the patent was

 

  6   invalid.

 

  7             On a second appeal in this Xerox versus

 

  8   3Com, which I cite in my written statement, Federal

 

  9   Circuit said well, of course, the issue of claim

 

 10   construction is different from the issue of

 

 11   validity; the district court has to consider the

 

 12   prior art defense and consider whether the patent

 

 13   is indeed invalid.

 

 14             Well, why can't I cite that to the

 

 15   district court?  It may be that the Federal

 

 16   Circuit's prohibition on citing its nonprecedential

 

 17   decision should apply only to the Federal Circuit

 

 18   but it's my very strong impression that, as you

 

 19   heard Chief Judge Mayer saying, he is very strongly

 

 20   of the opinion that these nonprecedential decisions

 

 21   should never be cited.  I'm very hesitant to cite

 

 22   an unpublished nonprecedential decision of the

 

                                                               317

 

  1   Federal Circuit to any district court judge.

 

  2   Heaven forbid if, as sometimes happens, we have

 

  3   sitting as a district court judge one of the judges

 

  4   of the Federal Circuit.

 

  5             Now it's said that there's a question of

 

  6   resources that are available to litigants.  Well,

 

  7   again I don't think that this is a serious issue.

 

  8   One researches these issues as they come up.  If

 

  9   the cases are out there they need to be found.

 

 10             Now if an associate brings this

 

 11   unpublished decision to me and says well, I found

 

 12   this case that seems to be on point; what do we do?

 

 13   Well, I'm going to say well, you're going to need

 

 14   to spend some more time and find a published

 

 15   decisions if it exists because that's what the

 

 16   courts want to see, either at the district court

 

 17   level or when this gets to the court of appeals.

 

 18             So we're going to be spending more money,

 

 19   it seems to me, to try to find published decisions.

 

 20   For some clients we'll say okay, if you found the

 

 21   unpublished decision let's stop there.  If I take

 

 22   my chances and cite this decision, what I'd like to

 

                                                               318

 

  1   be able to do if Rule 32.1 is passed, as I think it

 

  2   should be, is I'd like to say okay, you can stop.

 

  3   We have an unpublished decision but for the

 

  4   persuasive value and for this client we're not

 

  5   going to spend any more money researching.  We're

 

  6   going to put this in our brief and try to argue the

 

  7   persuasive value that it has.

 

  8             Now another problem that the Federal

 

  9   Circuit has which Judge Mayer did not allude to is

 

 10   a 60-day rule for making a motion to get its

 

 11   nonprecedential decisions published as

 

 12   precedential.  So if we find this case after that

 

 13   60-day time limit has passed, then we've got a

 

 14   problem.

 

 15             Now I think Judge Wood alluded to the very

 

 16   strong presumption that should attach to motions to

 

 17   make nonprecedential decisions citable and perhaps

 

 18   at the very minimum this committee should recommend

 

 19   that there be no time limits on making such

 

 20   motions.  But I think as other committee members

 

 21   have pointed out, there are still very practical

 

 22   problems in finding this case the day before the

 

                                                               319

 

  1   arguments.  In the district court or court of

 

  2   appeals, making the motion is awkward, to say the

 

  3   least.

 

  4             Now we've heard a lot of the very real

 

  5   dangers that could come into being if Rule 32.1 is

 

  6   adopted.  I have very little doubt that judges

 

  7   will, as Judge Bryson said, spend more time

 

  8   addressing nonprecedential unpublished decisions,

 

  9   but that's life and that's what should be done.  It

 

 10   is the burden that the judges unfortunately carry

 

 11   and I apologize that an increased burden may be

 

 12   placed upon them but, as Judge Becker pointed out,

 

 13   that's what they're there for, to render decisions

 

 14   that will be helpful to the parties and to the

 

 15   public.

 

 16             I thought it was also very instructive the

 

 17   colloquy that Judge Stewart had with the judges

 

 18   from the Federal Circuit about what is the big deal

 

 19   about citing a nonprecedential decision as

 

 20   persuasive?  Aren't there all sorts of decisions

 

 21   that are not precedent in the Federal Circuit that

 

 22   are cited to you?  And I must say respectfully I

 

                                                               320

 

  1   found the judge's attempts to deal with those

 

  2   questions unpersuasive.  Judges can and do often

 

  3   address decisions that are not binding precedents

 

  4   in a particular court and they deal with them all

 

  5   the time.

 

  6             Particularly in the patent field where

 

  7   district court judges may not be as familiar with

 

  8   Federal Circuit precedent and patent law as they

 

  9   should be, it is very helpful, I think, to be able

 

 10   to cite, in those cases where we have to, a

 

 11   nonprecedential unpublished decision.  In the

 

 12   hypothetical I described, isn't it better that we

 

 13   cite to the district court or, if need be, to the

 

 14   Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit, this

 

 15   Xerox versus 3Com case so that the courts get it

 

 16   right?  It's more important that the courts get it

 

 17   right than we deal with some possibility that

 

 18   decisions will be delayed.

 

 19             The chairman has suggested that perhaps

 

 20   more empirical studying may be needed.  Perhaps

 

 21   that's a good idea but I would say that no

 

 22   empirical study, additional empirical study, is

 

                                                               321

 

  1   necessary if you think that the dangers pale in

 

  2   comparison, as I do, to the very fundamental aspect

 

  3   of being able to cite for whatever value these

 

  4   nonprecedential unpublished decisions have.

 

  5             And it is the case--and I've spoken to

 

  6   lawyers in the Ninth Circuit and I've spoken to

 

  7   lawyers all around the country--it is frequently

 

  8   the case that my colleagues have said oh yes, we

 

  9   have had several occasions where I can remember

 

 10   clearly in my mind the time when we had this

 

 11   wonderful nonprecedential decision that would have

 

 12   made things clearer for the judge, clearer for our

 

 13   clients, and help reach the right result but we

 

 14   couldn't cite it.  That just seems to me a very

 

 15   unfair result.

 

 16             Now there's lots of unfairness and the

 

 17   unfairness that may ensue to judges who have to

 

 18   deal with the proposed rule are genuine but, as I

 

 19   suggest, given the nature of judges' role in our

 

 20   system, the unfairness of not allowing lawyers and

 

 21   the public to cite these nonprecedential decisions

 

 22   trumps the other unfairnesses.

 

                                                               322

 

  1             Finally, as Judge Wood said, there is

 

  2   something of a devil's deal that is recognized in

 

  3   the situation where courts of appeals have said

 

  4   these decisions should not be cited.  Please be on

 

  5   the side of the angels in this instance.  Thank

 

  6   you.

 

  7             JUDGE ALITO:  Thank you.

 

  8             Questions?

 

  9             MR. McGOUGH:  Mr.  Wallach, I had just

 

 10   gotten onto my first patent case in the Federal

 

 11   Circuit as an appellate lawyer and you mentioned

 

 12   claim construction and the case I have is a claim

 

 13   construction case and I have seen some statistics

 

 14   cited about the percentage of claims construction

 

 15   cases that are reversed by the Federal Circuit.

 

 16   Are you familiar with those?

 

 17             MR. WALLACH:  Generally, yes, a legal

 

 18   decision that the Federal Circuit feels free to

 

 19   review de novo.  As all legal questions are, there

 

 20   are frequent reversals, yes.

 

 21             MR. McGOUGH:  But I saw a statistic that

 

 22   said that currently it's up to 74 percent reversal

 

                                                               323

 

  1   rate on claims construction on district court

 

  2   decisions.  Are those generally done in published

 

  3   or unpublished decisions?  Do you have any feel for

 

  4   that?

 

  5             MR. WALLACH:  I don't know that and I

 

  6   don't know that the Administrative Office keeps

 

  7   that sort of statistics.  The Federal Circuit

 

  8   itself might keep those statistics.  I can just

 

  9   tell you from my own experience I was involved in

 

 10   one of the cases that I cite in my written

 

 11   statement, Extrel versus Bruker, and we have an

 

 12   unpublished decision which involved not claim

 

 13   construction but a question of what evidence is

 

 14   sufficient to prove infringement under the doctrine

 

 15   of equivalence.

 

 16             I must say you can't guarantee that the

 

 17   same sort of evidence will be presented in a later

 

 18   case but if it is, I would very much like to be

 

 19   able to cite the decision with which I'm familiar

 

 20   and point out to the judge, either in a proposed

 

 21   jury instruction or a motion for judgment as a

 

 22   matter of law, what that result was in that

 

                                                               324

 

  1   previous case and why the result should or

 

  2   shouldn't be the same in the future case.

 

  3             JUDGE ALITO:  Thank you very much, Mr.

 

  4   Wallach.  We appreciate your coming and appreciate

 

  5   your waiting so long.

 

  6             Our final witness is Brian Wolfman,

 

  7   director of Public Citizens Litigation Group.

 

  8                    STATEMENT OF BRIAN WOLFMAN

 

  9             MR. WOLFMAN:  Thank you for the

 

 10   opportunity to come here today and I will try to be

 

 11   brief.

 

 12             To quote somebody I was talking with

 

 13   earlier today, at the risk of being the mouse that

 

 14   squeaked, what I want to do here is try to connect

 

 15   two of the rules that are before the committee

 

 16   here, 32.1 and another one that I believe--I got

 

 17   here a little late this morning because I was in

 

 18   the D.C. Circuit doing a case this morning but I

 

 19   got here a little late and I'm pretty sure this

 

 20   other rule hasn't been discussed.

 

 21             I want to try to connect the two because

 

 22   to me, many things have come out here but there

 

                                                               325

 

  1   hasn't been a sufficient emphasis on uniformity as

 

  2   it applies to practitioners and one reason for me

 

  3   to support 32.1 and to make another point that I

 

  4   want to make here is the importance of uniformity

 

  5   unless there's a good reason to be nonuniform.

 

  6             I'm the director of Public Citizen

 

  7   Litigation Group and we've litigated hundreds of

 

  8   cases in the courts of appeals.  Our lawyers have

 

  9   this year, just in the past year, filed briefs and

 

 10   argued cases in the D.C., Second, Third, Fifth,

 

 11   Sixth, Seventh, Eighth, Ninth, Eleventh and Federal

 

 12   Circuits.  I mention this for two related reasons.

 

 13             First, the theme of these remarks, as I

 

 14   said, is that in our experience uniformity in the

 

 15   rules is generally beneficial to practitioners and

 

 16   I believe at least to the court clerks because it

 

 17   allows practitioners to file motions, briefs, and

 

 18   other papers and to do whatever is necessary to

 

 19   move the case along and to make the best case for

 

 20   the client without fear that they're violating a

 

 21   local rule, some of which are quite difficult to

 

 22   discern.  It's always been our view therefore, as I

 

                                                               326

 

  1   said, that absent a compelling reason, the federal

 

  2   rules should establish one rule and the local

 

  3   rule-makers shouldn't thereafter interfere.

 

  4             Second, several of the comments on

 

  5   proposed Rule 32.1 take the position that the

 

  6   status quo is preferable because local citation

 

  7   rules regarding these so-called unpublished or

 

  8   nonprecedential opinions allow the courts to

 

  9   confirm their practices to local needs and

 

 10   traditions.  In this regard it's further argued

 

 11   that most practitioners either one, practice

 

 12   exclusively in one circuit or nearly so or two,

 

 13   that they practice with large national firms that

 

 14   have the resources necessary to discern all the

 

 15   local variations and comply with them.

 

 16             I don't think that's a fair

 

 17   characterization of the practice world and it's not

 

 18   just our situation.  Our situation is obviously not

 

 19   like that.  Our offices practice all over the

 

 20   country, more outside D.C. than within it, yet our

 

 21   staff size and resources are quite limited and

 

 22   complying with the myriad of local variations is a

 

                                                               327

 

  1   significant burden.  But we know of many other

 

  2   small and medium-size firms that we work with that

 

  3   are in similar situations in which dealing with

 

  4   local variation is a burden.  It's not going to

 

  5   kill their practices but it's a significant burden,

 

  6   so you have to ask the question what is the value

 

  7   of local variation?

 

  8             And believe it or not, this first brings

 

  9   me to Rule 27(d)(1)(e), which is proposed here,

 

 10   which no one talked about so far and it's not what

 

 11   brought everyone here today, of course, but it's

 

 12   important because it helps illustrate our concern

 

 13   with local variation and it'll bring me back to

 

 14   Rule 32.1.

 

 15             That proposal says that motions now will

 

 16   have to meet the typeface and type style

 

 17   restrictions currently in place for briefs,

 

 18   generally a larger type than we all grew up using,

 

 19   and this is necessary, the committee says, to

 

 20   prevent abuses such as litigants using very small

 

 21   typeface to cram in as many words as possible into

 

 22   the pages that are permitted.

 

                                                               328

 

  1             We like this change because it eliminates

 

  2   local variation of a kind that's really not useful,

 

  3   in our view.  Some courts of appeals allow 12-point

 

  4   type.  The D.C. Circuit where we practice with some

 

  5   regularity allows 11-point type.  The problem to us

 

  6   is just one of transition.  As we say in our

 

  7   comments and I won't belabor, by moving to a larger

 

  8   font but leaving the page limits the same, the

 

  9   committee has, I think without explanation,

 

 10   effectively reduced the page limits for these items

 

 11   and that can be dealt with, we think, and ought to

 

 12   be.

 

 13             Similarly, after filing our comments on

 

 14   the rules the committee is considering today we

 

 15   learned of two proposed changes to the local rules

 

 16   of the Third Circuit.  Again neither of them are

 

 17   earth-shattering but both of which would create

 

 18   additional nonuniformity and difficulty for

 

 19   national practitioners.  I've submitted a copy of

 

 20   our comments on those rules to this committee so

 

 21   you can see what I mean but one of those proposed

 

 22   changes, again not earth-shattering at all, is that

 

                                                               329

 

  1   each brief contain marginal line numbering.  This

 

  2   illustrates our concern.  We noted that this new

 

  3   requirement would add yet another of the myriad

 

  4   local rules for briefs that are imposed in circuit

 

  5   after circuit and we pointed to FRAP 32(e), which

 

  6   is supposed to forbid a court of appeals from

 

  7   rejecting a document that complies with the

 

  8   formatting requirements of Rule 32.

 

  9             The point is not, to us, the merits of

 

 10   that requirement, although we express doubt as to

 

 11   whether the rule is warranted, but the increasing

 

 12   nonuniformity that we've perceived over the last

 

 13   half dozen or dozen years.

 

 14             Put another way and to use this example,

 

 15   assuming line numbering is a good idea, it should

 

 16   be this committee that takes that up and we doubt

 

 17   that there's something about practice in the Third

 

 18   Circuit particularly that makes such a rule

 

 19   particularly important there.

 

 20             And that brings me back to Rule 32.1.

 

 21   Although we did not get embroiled in this

 

 22   controversy, we took the position that the

 

                                                               330

 

  1   committee had it right and the lofty reasons given,

 

  2   which we subscribe to, are the ones given by Judge

 

  3   Becker and others this morning.  We agree that the

 

  4   principal benefits of the rule would be how it

 

  5   serves the litigants and the public.

 

  6             Again I have to say also I have to admit

 

  7   that the controversy over this rule taught me the

 

  8   value of the notice and comment process because

 

  9   although I didn't read the 400 plus comments, I

 

 10   read a good number of them and many of the concerns

 

 11   expressed, particularly those of some of the

 

 12   judges, were powerful and caused me to at least

 

 13   rethink the position that many of us in my office

 

 14   had taken.  But, as I say, I ultimately agree with

 

 15   the positions taken by individuals such as Judge

 

 16   Becker and Mr. Hangley of the benefits of the

 

 17   proposed rule.

 

 18             But the one argument that I found least

 

 19   powerful was the notion that local needs and indeed

 

 20   local traditions, whatever that means in this

 

 21   circuit or that, demanded flexibility and

 

 22   themselves argued in favor of the status quo. 

 

                                                               331

 

  1   There is some speculation and we heard it again

 

  2   here today, at least in my time here today, about

 

  3   local needs that might explain why some circuits

 

  4   allow citation of unpublished opinions and others

 

  5   do not but none seem convincing or backed up by a

 

  6   lot of empirical evidence of what might happen if

 

  7   the rule were to change.

 

  8             The more convincing argument, it seemed to

 

  9   us, was that since some circuits have allowed

 

 10   citation for many years without great apparent

 

 11   harm, that proposed Rule 32.1 could achieve

 

 12   unanimity without the horrible consequences that

 

 13   some have predicted, and that remains our position.

 

 14   And since the local needs argument is unconvincing,

 

 15   we urge the committee to stick with the proposal.

 

 16   I almost--I really don't think this but I would

 

 17   prefer almost a no-citation rule than the current

 

 18   mish-mash that exists out there today.

 

 19             I just don't see the sense in a wide

 

 20   variation of rules on this subject in what is

 

 21   supposedly a unitary federal appellate system.  The

 

 22   notion that under the current regime unpublished

 

                                                               332

 

  1   decisions may be cited in other courts, indeed in

 

  2   many other courts, but not in the courts that

 

  3   issued them is particularly at odds with the notion

 

  4   that we have one system of federal appellate

 

  5   jurisprudence.

 

  6             In sum, my message today is that when it

 

  7   comes to the federal rules, particularly those that

 

  8   instruct practitioners how the make their arguments

 

  9   and get their arguments before the courts, the

 

 10   rules ought to be uniform wherever possible, even

 

 11   where the local rule-makers may themselves think

 

 12   they have a better way of doing things.  And I

 

 13   don't say that pejoratively.  They may have a

 

 14   better way of doing things but except in the rare

 

 15   case where local needs truly demand variation and

 

 16   those needs outweigh the countervailing benefits of

 

 17   national consistency, we urge the committee to

 

 18   assert its authority to establish national rules of

 

 19   practice and wherever possible to discourage local

 

 20   variation.

 

 21             Thank you for allowing me to appear today

 

 22   and if anyone has any questions I'd be happy to try

 

                                                               333

 

  1   to answer them.

 

  2             MR. LEVY:  You have a very interesting

 

  3   perspective because of the nationwide nature of the

 

  4   cases you work on.  When your lawyers first work on

 

  5   a case in whatever circuit it is, unless it's one

 

  6   they're intimately familiar with, do they pick up a

 

  7   copy of the rules?

 

  8             MR. WOLFMAN:  We do pick up a copy of the

 

  9   local rules and they're not as easy to discern as

 

 10   someone who has practiced there all the time and

 

 11   sort of knows the inside story thinks they are.

 

 12   I'm embarrassed to say and I wouldn't be

 

 13   surprised--I think we're very careful lawyers, I

 

 14   think we write good briefs, but we get briefs

 

 15   bumped because of local rules.  It's hard to

 

 16   discern in many instances the value of them.

 

 17             I want to emphasize that doesn't mean it's

 

 18   not the better rule but the question is does that

 

 19   better rule respond to some local need?  And it's

 

 20   very hard to understand in most instances what that

 

 21   is.

 

 22             MR. LEVY:  You don't get briefs bumped

 

                                                               334

 

  1   because of the no-citation rule?

 

  2             MR. WOLFMAN:  No, we know that's a problem

 

  3   and we look into it.  However, in some

 

  4   instances--for instance, it is not at all clear to

 

  5   me sometimes what it means by what a precedent is,

 

  6   what is meant by a precedent.  There are some

 

  7   people that clearly mean that to mean something

 

  8   that's controlling.  There are other instances

 

  9   where people mean that just to be cited for any

 

 10   persuasive reason at all.  But we try to accord

 

 11   with those rules and we make multiple phone calls

 

 12   to clerks' offices.  Sometimes you get good

 

 13   answers; sometimes you don't.  That's really not

 

 14   the principal point I'm making. We try our best and

 

 15   we spend lots of time doing it but why?

 

 16             JUDGE ALITO:  Any other questions?

 

 17             Thank you very much, Mr. Wolfman, and

 

 18   thank you again for waiting.

 

 19             MR. WOLFMAN:  No problem.  Thank you.

 

 20             JUDGE ALITO:  I'd like to take a

 

 21   five-minute break and then the committee will

 

 22   reconvene for its regular agenda.

 

                                                               335

 

  1             [Whereupon, at 3:42 p.m., the hearing was

 

  2   adjourned.]

 

  3                              - - -